National Air Cargo

[Fly91]

Not that it really matters, the effect is the same.

I'm pretty sure there's no hard data on exactly what was being carried although it seems to be it was MRAPs.

In which case, I believe they start out around 14 tons and go up from there.

RIP.

I was just talking, in general, some pallets breaking loose back by the tail section area of a 747, not necessarily multiple pallets breaking free. Just 4-5 tons in the back that move back 20-30 feet would be enough to stall it.

My friend was killed in the DC-8 crash here in Miami.....that was also a weight shift accident on take off, and supposedly it was only a few pallets in the ar that moved a little further rearward when they broke free.....doesnt take much when youre on the ragged edge already.

But yea.....one MRAP alone moving back....if it were already way in the rear section....would stall it instantly.

 

[Fly91]

Aft Bulkhead Hydraulics to the APU Compromised? I would think there were shutoffs? probably happened so fast, I can see all hands on yokes@ Vr to stop the aggressive pitch, never got to gear retract much less handle rapid depletion of hydraulics fluid.

Hopefully the mics in CVR and cargo areas will give us recording of events synced around the FDR info. Relatively flat and low forward velocity should show position of ballast and vehicles as they were.

If FWD Ballast broke loose, would it behave as the video appears to permit the nose-over prior to impact. If the MRAPS broke loose, would we not see the nose-over less pronounced with one or more of the MRAPS collecting in the tail structure particularly on violent roll to the right it; possibly even some yawing moment of the tail to the right?

Hate won't have much preliminary for families when are brethren make it home to rest.

I'd think if a single MRAP in the rear broke free.....after rotation is when it started rolling backward, or sliding backward. Then as soon as they were airborne they immediately and aggressively started getting serious back pressure......and started the fight. Never even put the gear up........

 

[uba757]

On the B777, Stall Recovery calls for not changing gear or flap configuration but I cant remember what the B747 Stall Recovery steps were????????????????

 

[fareview]

"OPERATING PROCEDURES OPERATING PROCEDURES 747- 400 747- 400

STALL RECOVERY

A stall occurs when a wing reaches its critical angle of attack. Regardless of load factor, airspeed, bank angle, or atmospheric conditions, a wing always stalls at the same critical angle of attack

There is only one way to recover from a stall?reduce the angle of attack. Apply forward pressure on the control yoke or stick to reduce the angle of attack, and add power to minimize loss of altitude.

Stall recovery consists of recovery at: ? low altitude, low speed add full thrust for later climb out watch altitude, lower nose for about 5 o

or below 1000 feet, level off and pray. ? high altitude, high speed lower nose maximum do not add thrust to prevent overspeed choose a lower flight-level after recovery"

With the 777 only raise gear if Flaps ae up.

As an aside I would be careful gents with all the load shift speculation...There are other factors without a load shift that could have induced/resulted in the same attitude and subsequent events...leave it to the the experts

fv

 

[jmreii]

I was just talking, in general, some pallets breaking loose back by the tail section area of a 747, not necessarily multiple pallets breaking free. Just 4-5 tons in the back that move back 20-30 feet would be enough to stall it.

My friend was killed in the DC-8 crash here in Miami.....that was also a weight shift accident on take off, and supposedly it was only a few pallets in the ar that moved a little further rearward when they broke free.....doesnt take much when youre on the ragged edge already.

But yea.....one MRAP alone moving back....if it were already way in the rear section....would stall it instantly.

If pallets are breaking away either we have maintenance issues or we have operation issues. Fine Air found themselves in that box and came out a loser. The FAA has a long record revoking/surrender airline operating certificates. They accomplish this achievement without help from the current NTSB/Congress in which is anti-mistakes.

 

[Fly91]

If pallets are breaking away either we have maintenance issues or we have operation issues. Fine Air found themselves in that box and came out a loser. The FAA has a long record revoking/surrender airline operating certificates. They accomplish this achievement without help from the current NTSB/Congress in which is anti-mistakes.

I remember walking the entire length of both sides of the cargo a lot of times with the flight engineers.....the good FEs anyway who liked to check the loadmasters work.

But even though everything looks buckled/snapped/tied and locked.......cables, straps, buckles and locks also fail without warning.

I would think, hopefully, that if the plane made two take-offs, tie downs were checked at least once by the pilot(s)....... But we all know that always doesn't get done as part of the pre-flight on cargo flights.

But as "fareview" said.....there are other things that can cause a sharp pitch up and then cause that stall.....

So........I guess we'll see what the investigators find.

 

[jmreii]

I can understand a couple of restraining devices failing, but enough to cause a load to shift. This problem will quickly become a company problem and then a FAA problem really fast.

 

[OrionFE]

MRAPS are on floating pallets down the center. They are tied down with multiple straps to the cargo floor because the pallets are floating and not locked in. It is a common procedure in the loading manual.

 

[belchfire]

Aft Bulkhead Hydraulics to the APU Compromised?

There are hydraulic lines back there but they don't go to the APU, that's old school DC or Lockheed stuff maybe.

 

[unwashed]

If FWD Ballast broke loose,

It is fuel in the center tank, usually 30k.

 

[unwashed]

Possible, but the main gear doors would be open if the the gear failed to retract after activation due to SYS 1 and 4 failure.

It is hard to tell from the video if the gear doors are open. It would not take an MRAP to break free only a piece to slice through the pressure bulkhead and take out the hydraulics. With the underslung engines and no elevator the pitch rate would become incredible. We did some high attitude stalls in the sim after the AF crash. I had to pull the power way back to get the nose over with all my hydraulics functioning. Time will tell what the cause is, I hope.

 

[hawkerflyer]

Someone help me out here but I've looked at the footage probably twenty times and each time it looks to me like the nose gear is in transit to down just before they hit. Am I the only one or is it just me?

 

[Guam360]

It is fuel in the center tank, usually 30k.

true until we figured out that we could put cookie sheets in the lower lobe FWD and not have to have ballast fuel.

 

[tailwindz]

Someone help me out here but I've looked at the footage probably twenty times and each time it looks to me like the nose gear is in transit to down just before they hit. Am I the only one or is it just me?

I think it is just the angle, you can't see the nose gear until the roll is close to level.

Look at the main gear. Do you see the main gear doors open? I do not. If the nose gear was completing transit, the main gear doors would still be open for some time yet.

The other theory of a complete HYD loss due to the rear bulkhead being penetrated after the gear selected up is plausible and the gear would free fall if not already locked up. HOWEVER, the main gear doors would also be open. As far as I can see they are not.

 

[Zoneload]

With 5 MRAPS you will need 25,800 pounds of some kind of ballast Fuel or pallets to keep the plane in trim. I was told that they would remove the turrets from the top of the MRAPS and place them on pallets in the front of the plane.