dojetdriver
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Depends on make/model, does it not?
Like I said, doesn't matter. It's a sh1t ton, or a METRIC sh1t ton of weight shift.
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Depends on make/model, does it not?
Like I said, doesn't matter. It's a sh1t ton, or a METRIC sh1t ton of weight shift.
I have known Tim for almost 2 decades, celebrated his girls' births and grieved with him the toll this industry took on his marriage. Good man. Hate they will try to hang this around his neck. Interesting the DC8 misloading in Sacramento few years back by minimum wage baggage handlers, drug dealers and drunks led to a host of new regs and now at least one being his death sentence as required crew on this flight.
First round of frothy pints in the hereafter are on me, Timmy.
Any 747 guys care to speculate why the gear was down?
"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
Pilot Officer Gillespie Magee
No 412 squadron, RCAF
Killed 11 December 1941
First round of frothy pints in the hereafter are on me, Timmy.
Any 747 guys care to speculate why the gear was down?
"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
Pilot Officer Gillespie Magee
No 412 squadron, RCAF
Killed 11 December 1941
Nightmare67
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- 106
100-1/2,
I have quite a bit of time in the airplane and I don't believe the gear was ever retracted. After looking at the video frame by frame (and I am no expert) it looks like the aircraft when almost straight as soon as it lifted off. High airport elevation, heavy aircraft, full power I would imagine, aircraft pitches up excessively for what ever reason. He cant get the nose down due to the high power input (no choice there) and the addition of what caused the pitch to begin with (probably a load shift). The aircraft looks like it stalled to the right, recovered as best as possible,but just not enough altitude. I was truly amazed they got the wings back to anywhere near level.
Just another guys thoughts, but as i said, no expert here.
Rest in peace.
I have quite a bit of time in the airplane and I don't believe the gear was ever retracted. After looking at the video frame by frame (and I am no expert) it looks like the aircraft when almost straight as soon as it lifted off. High airport elevation, heavy aircraft, full power I would imagine, aircraft pitches up excessively for what ever reason. He cant get the nose down due to the high power input (no choice there) and the addition of what caused the pitch to begin with (probably a load shift). The aircraft looks like it stalled to the right, recovered as best as possible,but just not enough altitude. I was truly amazed they got the wings back to anywhere near level.
Just another guys thoughts, but as i said, no expert here.
Rest in peace.
National's most recent press release stated that the aircraft was just there to refuel. "no additional freight or people were loaded on the aircraft in Bagram"
If that's the case the cargo obviously was properly loaded (at least CG - wise) in Camp Bastian.
It looks like a securement issue that somehow made it thru the first rotation out of Camp Bastian and failed upon rotation coming out of Bagram.
The video instantly reminded me of a training video the Navy put out some 25-30 years ago of C2 Greyhounds (the Navy's main supply/transport ac for the carrier) having load shifts during cat-shots, all filmed by the deck cam. Straight into the vertical and hanging what seemed forever on the props before doing a wing-over into the ocean. Chilling.
In todays wiz-bang world of technologically advanced ac it gets very easy to forget how little room for error there truly is.
RIP fallen brothers...
If that's the case the cargo obviously was properly loaded (at least CG - wise) in Camp Bastian.
It looks like a securement issue that somehow made it thru the first rotation out of Camp Bastian and failed upon rotation coming out of Bagram.
The video instantly reminded me of a training video the Navy put out some 25-30 years ago of C2 Greyhounds (the Navy's main supply/transport ac for the carrier) having load shifts during cat-shots, all filmed by the deck cam. Straight into the vertical and hanging what seemed forever on the props before doing a wing-over into the ocean. Chilling.
In todays wiz-bang world of technologically advanced ac it gets very easy to forget how little room for error there truly is.
RIP fallen brothers...
unwashed
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A lack of hydraulics to retract them due to the aft pressure bulkhead being compromised along with the hydraulic lines just behind it?
I suggest you read the accident report again on Emery 17 because the accident was the result of the elevator control tab mechanism separation. In other words a bolt was improperly installed and came out. If any cargo shifted its because of this sequence of events. This company had many maintenance issues. Emery Worldwide Airlines surrender its operating certificate to avoid revocation.
FlyingPieceOfSt
Wood You Fly This Plane?
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Dumb Pilot
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Watching the pitch go beyond 30 degrees at a rate of more than 10 degrees per second make you forget about everything else but push on the controls.
Horrible way to fight your last fight!
Godspeed gentlemen!
Possible, but the main gear doors would be open if the the gear failed to retract after activation due to SYS 1 and 4 failure.
Aft Bulkhead Hydraulics to the APU Compromised? I would think there were shutoffs? probably happened so fast, I can see all hands on yokes@ Vr to stop the aggressive pitch, never got to gear retract much less handle rapid depletion of hydraulics fluid.
Hopefully the mics in CVR and cargo areas will give us recording of events synced around the FDR info. Relatively flat and low forward velocity should show position of ballast and vehicles as they were.
If FWD Ballast broke loose, would it behave as the video appears to permit the nose-over prior to impact. If the MRAPS broke loose, would we not see the nose-over less pronounced with one or more of the MRAPS collecting in the tail structure particularly on violent roll to the right it; possibly even some yawing moment of the tail to the right?
Hate won't have much preliminary for families when are brethren make it home to rest.
Hopefully the mics in CVR and cargo areas will give us recording of events synced around the FDR info. Relatively flat and low forward velocity should show position of ballast and vehicles as they were.
If FWD Ballast broke loose, would it behave as the video appears to permit the nose-over prior to impact. If the MRAPS broke loose, would we not see the nose-over less pronounced with one or more of the MRAPS collecting in the tail structure particularly on violent roll to the right it; possibly even some yawing moment of the tail to the right?
Hate won't have much preliminary for families when are brethren make it home to rest.
I was just talking, in general, some pallets breaking loose back by the tail section area of a 747, not necessarily multiple pallets breaking free. Just 4-5 tons in the back that move back 20-30 feet would be enough to stall it.
My friend was killed in the DC-8 crash here in Miami.....that was also a weight shift accident on take off, and supposedly it was only a few pallets in the ar that moved a little further rearward when they broke free.....doesnt take much when youre on the ragged edge already.
But yea.....one MRAP alone moving back....if it were already way in the rear section....would stall it instantly.
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I'd think if a single MRAP in the rear broke free.....after rotation is when it started rolling backward, or sliding backward. Then as soon as they were airborne they immediately and aggressively started getting serious back pressure......and started the fight. Never even put the gear up........
"OPERATING PROCEDURES OPERATING PROCEDURES 747- 400 747- 400
STALL RECOVERY
A stall occurs when a wing reaches its critical angle of attack. Regardless of load factor, airspeed, bank angle, or atmospheric conditions, a wing always stalls at the same critical angle of attack
There is only one way to recover from a stall?reduce the angle of attack. Apply forward pressure on the control yoke or stick to reduce the angle of attack, and add power to minimize loss of altitude.
Stall recovery consists of recovery at: ? low altitude, low speed add full thrust for later climb out watch altitude, lower nose for about 5 o
or below 1000 feet, level off and pray. ? high altitude, high speed lower nose maximum do not add thrust to prevent overspeed choose a lower flight-level after recovery"
With the 777 only raise gear if Flaps ae up.
As an aside I would be careful gents with all the load shift speculation...There are other factors without a load shift that could have induced/resulted in the same attitude and subsequent events...leave it to the the experts
fv
STALL RECOVERY
A stall occurs when a wing reaches its critical angle of attack. Regardless of load factor, airspeed, bank angle, or atmospheric conditions, a wing always stalls at the same critical angle of attack
There is only one way to recover from a stall?reduce the angle of attack. Apply forward pressure on the control yoke or stick to reduce the angle of attack, and add power to minimize loss of altitude.
Stall recovery consists of recovery at: ? low altitude, low speed add full thrust for later climb out watch altitude, lower nose for about 5 o
or below 1000 feet, level off and pray. ? high altitude, high speed lower nose maximum do not add thrust to prevent overspeed choose a lower flight-level after recovery"
With the 777 only raise gear if Flaps ae up.
As an aside I would be careful gents with all the load shift speculation...There are other factors without a load shift that could have induced/resulted in the same attitude and subsequent events...leave it to the the experts
fv
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If pallets are breaking away either we have maintenance issues or we have operation issues. Fine Air found themselves in that box and came out a loser. The FAA has a long record revoking/surrender airline operating certificates. They accomplish this achievement without help from the current NTSB/Congress in which is anti-mistakes.
I remember walking the entire length of both sides of the cargo a lot of times with the flight engineers.....the good FEs anyway who liked to check the loadmasters work.
But even though everything looks buckled/snapped/tied and locked.......cables, straps, buckles and locks also fail without warning.
I would think, hopefully, that if the plane made two take-offs, tie downs were checked at least once by the pilot(s)....... But we all know that always doesn't get done as part of the pre-flight on cargo flights.
But as "fareview" said.....there are other things that can cause a sharp pitch up and then cause that stall.....
So........I guess we'll see what the investigators find.
belchfire
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There are hydraulic lines back there but they don't go to the APU, that's old school DC or Lockheed stuff maybe.
unwashed
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It is fuel in the center tank, usually 30k.
unwashed
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It is hard to tell from the video if the gear doors are open. It would not take an MRAP to break free only a piece to slice through the pressure bulkhead and take out the hydraulics. With the underslung engines and no elevator the pitch rate would become incredible. We did some high attitude stalls in the sim after the AF crash. I had to pull the power way back to get the nose over with all my hydraulics functioning. Time will tell what the cause is, I hope.
hawkerflyer
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Guam360
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true until we figured out that we could put cookie sheets in the lower lobe FWD and not have to have ballast fuel.
I think it is just the angle, you can't see the nose gear until the roll is close to level.
Look at the main gear. Do you see the main gear doors open? I do not. If the nose gear was completing transit, the main gear doors would still be open for some time yet.
The other theory of a complete HYD loss due to the rear bulkhead being penetrated after the gear selected up is plausible and the gear would free fall if not already locked up. HOWEVER, the main gear doors would also be open. As far as I can see they are not.
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