AAI Pilots Expectations for January 2015

[Roomwithaview]

The votes are over and come 2015 we'll all be one big happy dysfunctional family. Like every other merged airline.

I think one of the things the company has capitalized on is doing what they do best. Divide and conquer. Here's my olive branch.

swapa's not giving us much information on expectations for the the future. Nothing really new there. I'm sure they're giving you even less.

What I'm interested in is how y'all (transitioned pilots) envision you'll be exercising the full potential of your seniority come 2015.

I'm seriously not trying to start another swapa/alpa war, there's enough of those on here. I just want to know where y'all envision the layout of the Captain/FO list is going to be post 2015.

Pretty important stuff for many on our MSL.

thanks,

RAV

 

[madjack]

Read the CBA

 

[humveedriver]

2015 is an arbitrary number that means nothing. There are MOUs that will prevent any AT pilots from bidding captain unless SWA adds a significant amount of airframes. We will be super senior FO's for many years and our junior pilots will be junior and middle of the road FO's for 15-22 years. That's my understanding of how this thing shakes out. Live your life. Adapt to the new situation or choose a new path.

 

[madjack]

If there is a positive vacancy in any SWA domicile a FAT can bid CP post 01/15, If his/her seniority can hold it...their off to training, displacing a RSW pilot as was negotiated and voted on... Move along..

 

[Roomwithaview]

Jack
thanks for the replies on the swa side as well. I agree with your assertion but the individuals I've spoken to in swapa have tried to state more along the lines of what humv stated which is why I wanted to get info from the AAI side to see what their MEC is telling them.

 

[Skyboy722]

If there is a positive vacancy in any SWA domicile a FAT can bid CP post 01/15, If his/her seniority can hold it...their off to training, displacing a RSW pilot as was negotiated and voted on... Move along..

Incorrect. There must be a system wide net gain in captain seats for a new upgrade to occur. No one can upgrade and displace someone to the right seat.

 

[400ADude]

If I was an AirTran pilot my expectations would be a job infinitely better than what I had and would gladly sit in the back with a nice warm cup of STFU.

 

[madjack]

Skyboy,

That is what I meant, thx

 

[Roomwithaview]

Skyboy722

Incorrect. There must be a system wide net gain in captain seats for a new upgrade to occur. No one can upgrade and displace someone to the right seat.

I hear you. Are you at SWA? The reason I ask is because the Vacancies are always system wide. The fly in the ointment now is that after 2015 there will be several pilots who have not been able to exercise the full potential of their system wide seniority.

Consider a zero sum game in vacancies but the usual plus captains/fos here and minus captains/fos there. Where is the language that now prevents a former airtran guy whose been held back until now from moving into that spot in that base where they are increasing captains?

The vacancy bids have always looked at global seniority and they will now as well.

AAI guys? What say y'all?

 

[Skyboy722]

I hear you. Are you at SWA? The reason I ask is because the Vacancies are always system wide. The fly in the ointment now is that after 2015 there will be several pilots who have not been able to exercise the full potential of their system wide seniority.

Consider a zero sum game in vacancies but the usual plus captains/fos here and minus captains/fos there. Where is the language that now prevents a former airtran guy whose been held back until now from moving into that spot in that base where they are increasing captains?

The vacancy bids have always looked at global seniority and they will now as well.

AAI guys? What say y'all?

Lets say that system wide, there is a net of 0 captain vacancies, but DAL is -2 and Oak is +2. If no existing captain bids into those two OAK spots, then 2 captains will be displaced from DAL out to OAK to fill those spots, even if there are FOs senior to them who bid OAK captain. The reason being, if senior FOs bid into the OAK captain slots, then those two DAL captains would be downgraded to FO, and THAT is what is prohibited by the contract.

 

[Roomwithaview]

My understanding is that Vacancy looks at the entire pilot groups Vacancy choices and then awards you the position your seniority can hold.

We are operating in a different environment now in the sense that there are pilots being assigned an artificial seniority as a F.O. the whole point behind the 2015 fence.

You're saying that these pilots will still be held back from exercising their Master Seniority even after 2015?

I don't think so. That's not the way our Vacancy system works.

7. All new vacancies put up for bid as well as all secondary vacancies left open by successful bidders will be available to all pilots in the system. No pilot will be involuntarily displaced from a domicile, equipment or crew position except as provided herein.
a. In the event that a reduction in crews occurs in a domicile, this reduction will be posted as an equipment and domicile bid, and the Master Bids on file at the time of closing will govern.
b. If an insufficient number of pilots have bid to leave the base, the most junior pilots will be displaced. Pilots so displaced may displace pilots in other domiciles where no vacancy exists based on their system seniority, thereby causing a secondary displacement.

 

[redflyer65]

If I was an AirTran pilot my expectations would be a job infinitely better than what I had and would gladly sit in the back with a nice warm cup of STFU.

Nice!

 

[HowardBorden]

My understanding is that Vacancy looks at the entire pilot groups Vacancy choices and then awards you the position your seniority can hold.

We are operating in a different environment now in the sense that there are pilots being assigned an artificial seniority as a F.O. the whole point behind the 2015 fence.

You're saying that these pilots will still be held back from exercising their Master Seniority even after 2015?

I don't think so. That's not the way our Vacancy system works.

7. All new vacancies put up for bid as well as all secondary vacancies left open by successful bidders will be available to all pilots in the system. No pilot will be involuntarily displaced from a domicile, equipment or crew position except as provided herein.
a. In the event that a reduction in crews occurs in a domicile, this reduction will be posted as an equipment and domicile bid, and the Master Bids on file at the time of closing will govern.
b. If an insufficient number of pilots have bid to leave the base, the most junior pilots will be displaced. Pilots so displaced may displace pilots in other domiciles where no vacancy exists based on their system seniority, thereby causing a secondary displacement.

This section refers to simply moving pilots around the system with a zero increase in total positions. Pilots will not be downgraded out of a seat unless there is an actual reduction in total Captain seats, but the displacement language can involuntarily move you around the system to a Captain seat in another domicile. If the total number of Captain seats is increased post 2015 those positions will be filled by the most senior pilots on the global seniority list. At least that is how I understand it.

 

[shagadelic]

There are lance captains and a few senior FO's right now that are senior enough to hold captain. If there is not a net gain in Captains, they can't bid in and hold captain...period. If, in January of 2015, there is a vacancy creating +20 captains, exactly 20 people, most likely former Air Tran, will be able to bid into those positions. The bottom captain can not be displaced, UNLESS there is a reduction of captains....in which case, it will be a long time before that individual will get back to the left seat, as there is no right of return.

That's how it works.

 

[HowardBorden]

There are lance captains and a few senior FO's right now that are senior enough to hold captain. If there is not a net gain in Captains, they can't bid in and hold captain...period. If, in January of 2015, there is a vacancy creating +20 captains, exactly 20 people, most likely former Air Tran, will be able to bid into those positions. The bottom captain can not be displaced, UNLESS there is a reduction of captains....in which case, it will be a long time before that individual will get back to the left seat, as there is no right of return.

That's how it works.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster speaks the truth.

 

[Ty Webb]

If I was an AirTran pilot my expectations would be a job infinitely better than what I had and would gladly sit in the back with a nice warm cup of STFU.

Reading your post, while on a 26 hour layover at a Caribbean island resort, really drives home how truly ignorant you are of what it's like over here. :laugh:

I'm going to the beach. Y'all have fun with this one.

Ty

 

[Roomwithaview]

Shag

There are lance captains and a few senior FO's right now that are senior enough to hold captain. If there is not a net gain in Captains, they can't bid in and hold captain...period. If, in January of 2015, there is a vacancy creating +20 captains, exactly 20 people, most likely former Air Tran, will be able to bid into those positions.

I got what you're saying even though I can't find anything in the contract that clearly spells that out. I guess a couple concerns I have are the secondary vacancy issue, and the fact that we've never had this many pilots that will want and have a bid in for a capt spot that on an instant date will now be able to hold it, on paper at least. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 is what I've been told.

Then there's the caveat about the 717 guys losing their spots. I thought I remembered some language in there regarding that issue as well and was wondering how that would play out.

I was hoping for more input from the AAI side since I don't have access to their SL only our contract and SL-10. After 2015 we'll all be in the same bidding boat and it would be nice to have information on how things are going to go down post reconstruction.

RAV

 

[HowardBorden]

I was hoping for more input from the AAI side since I don't have access to their SL only our contract and SL-10. After 2015 we'll all be in the same bidding boat and it would be nice to have information on how things are going to go down post reconstruction.

RAV

Go to SWAPA.org - News - AirTran Transition Info and you will find all the documents including the ALPA contract and side letter.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Howard

Thanks for all that. Kind of raises even more questions for me.

There's this

Until January 1, 2015, all 737 Captain will be filled by current Southwest pilots. After that date, Captain vacancies at SWA will be determined by system seniority.

and then this

A. AirTran pilots whose seat position is eliminated by reduction of the B717 fleet will bid system seniority for their new assignment. (27.F.2.)

Which brings up the question of what the definition of "system seniority" bid is.

I know what it meant in the past. Thoughts?

 

[scoreboardII]

It means what it means, system. Not domicile.