AA/USAir non SLI?

[Dan Roman]

The thought has occurred to me with AA already laying the ground for a very long SLI integration timetable.....has anybody considered the possibility that AA could just keep the two separate and do what Lorenzo did and Gary Kelly threatened to do? If USAPA continues as they have in the past, what's to stop AA from just keeping them separate and cherry picking the flying they want?
I would hate to see a large airline screw over a smaller airline, but USAPA hasn't exactly been a voice of reason and insight in our profession.

 

[abefly]

The thought has occurred to me with AA already laying the ground for a very long SLI integration timetable.....has anybody considered the possibility that AA could just keep the two separate and do what Lorenzo did and Gary Kelly threatened to do? If USAPA continues as they have in the past, what's to stop AA from just keeping them separate and cherry picking the flying they want?
I would hate to see a large airline screw over a smaller airline, but USAPA hasn't exactly been a voice of reason and insight in our profession.

The MOU prevents this from happening. There is a date where everything has to be integrated.

 

[MATHEWS]

Is that 100% for sure....as in 0 chance of separate seniority lists?

 

[abefly]

Is that 100% for sure....as in 0 chance of separate seniority lists?

Yes.

APA does not want any chance of having an A B C scale type scenario.

 

[Dan Roman]

The MOU prevents this from happening. There is a date where everything has to be integrated.

Good to hear, it seems to me the parties involved would want the scenario covered.

 

[abefly]

Good to hear, it seems to me the parties involved would want the scenario covered.

US Air learned their lesson on this one. If things aren't settled by a certain date it goes to an expedited arbitration with the results bound by all parties.. It even states that it is bound upon any new union created.

 

[Whine Lover]

" APA does not want any chance of having an A B C scale type scenario."

Agreed.


But...UsAirways ( Now aka AMR ) has enjoyed that very position for MANY years now due to their ability to foster discourse between the Pilot Groups of the previously former merged airlines.

WHY would they NOT try to continue this Cost Competitive/Union Busting advantage?

Good Luck.

YKW

 

[whymeworry?]

US Air learned their lesson on this one. If things aren't settled by a certain date it goes to an expedited arbitration with the results bound by all parties.. It even states that it is bound upon any new union created.

Unless of course the "Easties" of USAPA don't like the award. Since to them binding is not really binding.

 

[Metrojet]

The thought has occurred to me with AA already laying the ground for a very long SLI integration timetable.....has anybody considered the possibility that AA could just keep the two separate and do what Lorenzo did and Gary Kelly threatened to do? If USAPA continues as they have in the past, what's to stop AA from just keeping them separate and cherry picking the flying they want?
I would hate to see a large airline screw over a smaller airline, but USAPA hasn't exactly been a voice of reason and insight in our profession.

C'mon Dan

Are you just tryin to stir the pot? Remember that Usairways will be running the new airline
Or I guess your saying maybe something could happen like when Delta bought certain PAN AM planes (airbus 330's oops meant airbus 310's ) and then only took the pilots who were qualified , cherry picking and out of senority

I guess Delta could do try that again as well! They do have a history of buying western based airlines!

Metrojet

 

[doh]

Metro, you have a history of lying. Agreeing to binding arbitration and then going back on your word is lying. Don't try to change the subject to Delta, you liar.

 

[Dan Roman]

Metro, you have a history of lying. Agreeing to binding arbitration and then going back on your word is lying. Don't try to change the subject to Delta, you liar.

Little over the top I would say. I certainly think USAPA was a huge mistake, however, that said, mergers are one big vat of differing perspectives and an ugly proposition no matter who does what. They are never cut and dry deals to say the least. But to to single out an individual and simply call him a "liar" is a little over the top and labels you as just as bad as the USAPA leadership that made promises they couldn't keep. You can make a case that the east guys have been getting screwed over by so many circumstances beyond their control that it is somewhat understandable the path they took.
But the bottom line is you sound like Glenn Beck, which makes you a backmarker in the human race.

 

[Dan Roman]

C'mon Dan

Are you just tryin to stir the pot? Remember that Usairways will be running the new airline
Or I guess your saying maybe something could happen like when Delta bought certain PAN AM planes (airbus 330's oops meant airbus 310's ) and then only took the pilots who were qualified , cherry picking and out of senority

I guess Delta could do try that again as well! They do have a history of buying western based airlines!

Metrojet

Kind of stirring the pot, but really wondering if you guys had looked at the possibility. USAir or not, the whole USAPA/NIC deal is something they are going to want to put behind them. I really don't think they care how they do it, just that it gets put to bed once and for all.

 

[doh]

Little over the top I would say. I certainly think USAPA was a huge mistake, however, that said, mergers are one big vat of differing perspectives and an ugly proposition no matter who does what. They are never cut and dry deals to say the least. But to to single out an individual and simply call him a "liar" is a little over the top and labels you as just as bad as the USAPA leadership that made promises they couldn't keep. You can make a case that the east guys have been getting screwed over by so many circumstances beyond their control that it is somewhat understandable the path they took.
But the bottom line is you sound like Glenn Beck, which makes you a backmarker in the human race.

First off, the you is a generic for the group who he supports. Secondly, it gets old when he tries to deflect from the topic at hand. Not sure if missing that would make you a backmarker...

 

[Metrojet]

Kind of stirring the pot, but really wondering if you guys had looked at the possibility. USAir or not, the whole USAPA/NIC deal is something they are going to want to put behind them. I really don't think they care how they do it, just that it gets put to bed once and for all.

Hi Dan

1. Thanks for sticking up for my somewhat "re stirring the pot" response - don't worry - I got think skin - I like politics! ? doh just didn't have anything intelligent to add so he just decided to insult me.

2. You are 100 percent correct that we just want to put this whole senority issue behind us - but that doesn't mean we are going to move out of the entire house and let others take what we have spent our whole careers working on.

3. Still hoping for a ride on one of those shiny purple a 330's. - maybe this summer!

Take care
Metrojet

 

[Dan Roman]

Hi Dan

1. Thanks for sticking up for my somewhat "re stirring the pot" response - don't worry - I got think skin - I like politics! ? doh just didn't have anything intelligent to add so he just decided to insult me.

2. You are 100 percent correct that we just want to put this whole senority issue behind us - but that doesn't mean we are going to move out of the entire house and let others take what we have spent our whole careers working on.

3. Still hoping for a ride on one of those shiny purple a 330's. - maybe this summer!

Take care
Metrojet

No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

 

[General Lee]

No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Metrojet]

No need to reshuffle on the US side Dan, they already have an arbitrated award.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Hi GL

Thanks for the laughs with that reply - after 17,119 posts on FI - I am glad you still have a sense of humor!

Metrojet

 

[Draginass]

There's no way that the APA can cut a SLI using some list that USAPA produces. APA would be crazy to do so since it would open them up to be sued successfully. Therefor, there will be a Kabuki Dance of negotiations that will fail, and the whole thing will go to arbitration.

The APA has a list. Which list do you think that the arbitrators will use on the US Airways side?

 

[doh]

No worries, I may not exactly have been a big fan of USAPA on here, but I would hate to see the USAir guys get a bad deal out of this. I always err on tho optimistic side, but I think ultimately this will be a good deal for all. It's gonna take awhile though. Hopefully everyone can just reshuffle the deck, forget about the past and just live with binding arbitration. You've all been through enough.

Just live with binding arbitration. So you do get it?

 

[General Lee]

There's no way that the APA can cut a SLI using some list that USAPA produces. APA would be crazy to do so since it would open them up to be sued successfully. Therefor, there will be a Kabuki Dance of negotiations that will fail, and the whole thing will go to arbitration.

The APA has a list. Which list do you think that the arbitrators will use on the US Airways side?

Some Easties, like Metrojet, may never figure that out until the NIC is implemented, and it will come as a shock. It's called being clueless. His laughing will probably turn to sobbing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[atpcliff]

AA cannot do anything. USAir is running the show, and the AA managers are done.

 

[OHGOON]

AA cannot do anything. USAir is running the show, and the AA managers are done.

and your point here regarding SLI is???

 

[MD80PILOT]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

 

[eaglesview]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

You must be brand new to aviation or you would know better than to use words like, never, can't, or NO WAY.

 

[OHGOON]

You must be brand new to aviation or you would know better than to use words like, never, can't, or NO WAY.

True dat!

but his overall point is still well taken...hard to see it now coming out any other way than he predicts but knowing aviation...

Never underestimate the ability of corruption and greed to get the upper hand.

 

[sniper]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

Their pilot group had no raise for 7 years and majority of them will hit 65 without a raise.

7 years with 40000 pay less per year for each captain is 280,000 plus interest plus 401k etc...
Each if those pilots lost at least 400,000 dollars


Simple put

 

[General Lee]

There is NO WAY any judge or arbitrator will NOT consider the NIC award when
looking to the AA/LCC SLI intergration. And my humble bet is that is where it's heading to an Arbitrator.

I think it actually will be a panel of arbitrators, not 1. But, the USAir SLI was agreed upon beforehand, by all sides including the company, and agreed on Nicolau. And, I bet all 3 of the arbitrators know Nic personally. Everyone will also be watching the Easties, and that should be interesting. I can't wait to read the testimony notes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

Their pilot group had no raise for 7 years and majority of them will hit 65 without a raise.

7 years with 40000 pay less per year for each captain is 280,000 plus interest plus 401k etc...
Each if those pilots lost at least 400,000 dollars


Simple put

It really was a collosal F-Up. What a complete waste of time. The top 500 guys on the East side got the top 500 spots because they flew INTL. They could have not voted for USAPA, still stayed in the top 500, and had a pay raise for the last 5-8 years of their careers. But, they went along with the ride and lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, that could have been used to pump up their retirements, and the market has come back from the 2009 lows. Just think what a few thousand extra dollars per month since the comeback of the DOW could have resulted in now? Oh well......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

USAPA and its creation will be remembered in the Aviation history books the most detrimental mistake done by an Airline pilot group.

It will
Be a case study in the Universities.

...

In Universities... yeah, I could see that. Universities are famous for peddling half truths as if it were knowledge.

Maybe they could feature John Prater as a guest speaker at their series of lectures on USAPA, but to win his appearance they would have to censor any discussion of the unseemly profits that resulted from each and every flip flop of ALPA's whimsical seniority integration policy, lest even idiots grasp reality and the Universities' case study cease to appear relevant.

 

[Flybywire44]

It really was a collosal F-Up. What a complete waste of time. The top 500 guys on the East side got the top 500 spots because they flew INTL. They could have not voted for USAPA, still stayed in the top 500, and had a pay raise for the last 5-8 years of their careers. But, they went along with the ride and lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, that could have been used to pump up their retirements, and the market has come back from the 2009 lows. Just think what a few thousand extra dollars per month since the comeback of the DOW could have resulted in now? Oh well......


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hi General,

At worst USAPA served the East pilot group well by preserving seniority and growth on the East side for what will be at least 10 years and 3 months. Many of those pilots who would have been most affected will retire without having to endure the Nic award.

The top 500 pilots voted to protect their first officers and junior pilots.

The seniority and movement that would have otherwise been lost more than makes up for the loss of pay. Objectively, the loss of pay may also have positioned US Airways well for a merger.


West, East and APA may have no merger related seniority rights until JCBA and SLI implementation. Why would the arbitrators defy McCaskill Bond and give West pilots a windfall SLI award over APA pilots? APA and USAPA may provide a legitimate union purpose for what lists they provide for arbitration.

~12 percent of the newAmerican pilot group may not be relatively valued over the rest—The is a new JCBA and SLI with a new union purpose.