Hawaiian Adding A321 Neos? Didn't See That One Coming...

[johnsonrod]

What are the schedules like for the 717 these days? AM and PM patterns? How many legs per day and how many days flying per week? Also, how long on reserve is likely for a newhire on the 717?

Lastly, what is the fleet mix for newhires lately?

Thanks - PMs welcome.

 

[HA25]

What are the schedules like for the 717 these days? AM and PM patterns?

mix of early AM's (I had a 505 take off today).. and mid afternoon PM's, with a few "mid day" 9-5's... Seems like on the FO side these days, PM's go senior... captain side AM's... but the ultimate in serniority is Reserve... The top captains love it, though less so now with the staffing being low and their having to come out and "work" a lot more..

How many legs per day and how many days flying per week?

anywhere from 6-10.. center of gravity is 6-7, and there are a few 4... the sit times are from 0-2 hours max... and the more junior trips have the higher sit times..

typical day is 8-9 hours long..

Also, how long on reserve is likely for a newhire on the 717?

I wish reserve was an option for a new hire / junior guy.... it goes senior, and in some cases very senior... if you don't want reserve, the 717 is your plane.. the wide body guys tend to be on reserve when junior..

Lastly, what is the fleet mix for newhires lately?

last class was 50/50 76/71... there is a big back log of FO's going to the A330 from the 717 (and some even from the 767) so I don't expect much new hire slots going to the A330 any time soon.

 

[Dufus1]

Thanks for the info HA25. One question I haven't seen an answer to...what is the credit like for the junior schedules on the 717?
Thank.

 

[HA25]

Thanks for the info HA25. One question I haven't seen an answer to...what is the credit like for the junior schedules on the 717?
Thank.

I forgot to put a minimum credit condition in the PBS system (something I'm still figuring out how to use)... and got 89 hours.... 75 is the min, and 90 is the typical max... but they'll let you pick up open time to 100... and bank the amount over 90.. because of trip rig, you end up flying less than the pay amount, but it's not a LOT less.... something like 10% or so..

again if you want to fly your butt off, the 717 is the plane for you..

 

[Shifty]

Any word on phase III ramping up? Thanks

 

[BentOver]

Seems to be pretty quiet this month for Phase III's... They had a class end of December, and had some Phase I/II interviews mid Dec.... From what I could tell still a handfull of newhires needed to fill the last vacancy..

 

[Sleepyhead]

post on another board says no phase-1 til next window, only pulling from the pool
any hear that?

 

[scoreboardII]

Dan, be honest, who do you think brings you your feed to OAK and LAX?

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, be honest, who do you think brings you your feed to OAK and LAX?

This is my understanding of it. The fact is we don't get that much feed from anyone in those cities. Look at our departure times, they are pretty early, hence it's hard to get a lot of people connecting to an early am departure. LAX has later flights and we do code share with some, I believe American Eagle feeds us there. We do codeshare with The Virgin airlines, Atlantic, Australia and America, in Asia we have a strong Korean Air feed and ANA also. Quite a few other foreign carriers too. We also have a codeshare agreement in JFK with JetBlue and APA just approved codeshare for American with Hawaiian and Alaska.
Our business plan is more point to point than most. We primarily sell tickets to people in our originating cities that want to go to Hawaii, period.

Interesting couple stories on the subject. When we first started PHX we codeshared with USAir. The PHX station manager told me back than that Hawaiian knew it was a matter of time before USAir would start their own flights to Hawaii and we changed our business plan to start weaning our flights of the USAir codeshare. He said by the time USAir started their own flights we had gone from 80% of our passengers being feed from USAir to less than 20%. Our load factors were the same and yield had not taken a hit, but we just stopped depending on that feed. Before you ask, I don't have clue how they changed like that, but obviously they do. I believe it was partly do to changing departure and arrival times.
We use to codeshare with Alaska, not sure how much they fed us, but obviously we don't any more. It didn't effect our loads.
When ATA went under, SWA approached us about a codeshare. I know they talked (I've heard Gary Kelly and Mark Dunkerley are friends) but when asked, Dunkerley said it was just two completely different types of operations that simply couldn't be made to match up.
Again, and I've seen an investor presentation that says this, Hawaiian's business plan is to simply fly into cities that are large enough to support enough traffic locally that want to buy a ticket to Hawaii. The Hawaiian name and image is a powerful marketing tool. The only other airline that could compete in that area was of course, Aloha. No mainland carrier has that option. A good example of that at work is SNA to Hawaii. Aloha killed it in that market, it was their strongest mainland market and grew to multiple daily flights. CO jumped in and didn't do well at all, they dropped it.

 

[scoreboardII]

Thanks Dan.

I believe what my gut says is at least 25% of your flight is made of connects you don't know are connecting. Even though your departure times don't add up to a direct connect, it's easy for folks to arrive the night before and either get a room or wait in the airport. I know this because we bring folks in all the time who are happy to be going to the islands and will be doing one of the two I mentioned.

I think there is way more to the Kelly friendship than you realize. Either of us realize. Two completely different operations are exactly what merger folks look to to increase the synergies of each.

 

[Dan Roman]

Thanks Dan.

I believe what my gut says is at least 25% of your flight is made of connects you don't know are connecting. Even though your departure times don't add up to a direct connect, it's easy for folks to arrive the night before and either get a room or wait in the airport. I know this because we bring folks in all the time who are happy to be going to the islands and will be doing one of the two I mentioned.

I think there is way more to the Kelly friendship than you realize. Either of us realize. Two completely different operations are exactly what merger folks look to to increase the synergies of each.

Well. if they couldn't come up with a codeshare that worked I think it's a safe bet that a merger would be pretty far fetched!

While merging with Hawaiian is always on peoples fun to start rumor list, the reality is something completely different. Even the most realistic option, Delta, was put to rest by none other than Lee Moak. We are a pure discretionary traveler airline. We really don't bring much to the table for anyone else. Like I said we only work as Hawaiian Air to Hawaii.

As far as SWA is concerned, now nothing personal Score!, but that's a real long shot. Number one, if all of a sudden they thought they should become a Intl long haul AirBus operator in the Pacific they would be straying so far from their core business plan it would be ridiculous. They would be trying to turn themselves into a mini USAir, a domestic route structure with a smaller than the competition Intl route structure. They would really be sticking their necks out. In addition and again, nothing personal, but SWA's proven track record in mergers would absolutely make it impossible for the deal to be considered. With out going into a long drawn out explanation, SWA would not be allowed in the State pulling what they did to AirTran in Hawaii. It would be a whole different arena. Suffice to say, with over 5000 employees at Hawaiian, there is enough people at Hawaiian that know a lot more people that could do some serious damage to any attempt at a takeover.

Keep in mind that Hawaii's economy is doing very well because tourism is so strong. The number one reason tourism is so strong is because of the amount of airline seats that has been added. AK filled the void that AQ and ATA left, and HA has largely been responsible for the big increase from Asia, Australia and even the East Coast. The State will not let what Hawaiian has planned for growth go away, it would hurt the economy too much if, as in all mergers, the disappearing airline got cherry picked and discarded for the benefit of a mainland airline.

 

[Jim]

ScoreboardII - to add to what Dan said about codesharing with SWA. I asked Dunkerely when he was in my cockpit about it when it was a hot topic 3 or 4 years ago. Dunkerley said we did not need the codeshare to fill our planes so it didn't make any sense. He said it would be basically giving money to SWA with no real payback for Hawaiian.

 

[Full of LUV]

Again, and I've seen an investor presentation that says this, Hawaiian's business plan is to simply fly into cities that are large enough to support enough traffic locally that want to buy a ticket to Hawaii. The Hawaiian name and image is a powerful marketing tool. The only other airline that could compete in that area was of course, Aloha. No mainland carrier has that option. A good example of that at work is SNA to Hawaii. Aloha killed it in that market, it was their strongest mainland market and grew to multiple daily flights. CO jumped in and didn't do well at all, they dropped it.

That is interesting cause Aloha HI to mainland experience was closer to CO's than HAL's..... Are you saying the name/brand carried the day over the inflight experience?

 

[Dan Roman]

That is interesting cause Aloha HI to mainland experience was closer to CO's than HAL's..... Are you saying the name/brand carried the day over the inflight experience?

Yes, because while AQ may not have been up to what's currently being offered by HA, it was still a relatively authentic "Hawaii" type service.

 

[labbats]

With the 717 flying so many legs per day will that be affected by the upcoming rest/duty rules? Great company over there. Keep it up.

 

[HA25]

With the 717 flying so many legs per day will that be affected by the upcoming rest/duty rules? Great company over there. Keep it up.

It could. In my case I have a deal where Im working 8 days in a row, but after my 6th day of early morning "am" trips I flip over to "pm" trips for the last two pairings with literally 24 hours off. I don't know how your acclimating timezone thing will view that. After all there is 24 hours off, but adjusting from waking up at 230-3am to staring your day at 4pm and working until 1200am with in 24 hours goes to the core of the new rules.

 

[fly4surf]

I thought it would be more of a calendar day thing too with 36 hours off in 7 days?
Instead of 24?

So what you are doing would no longer be possible?

 

[HA25]

I thought it would be more of a calendar day thing too with 36 hours off in 7 days?
Instead of 24?

So what you are doing would no longer be possible?

I guess. I honestly don't know.

 

[727gm]

My condolences to Hawaiian pilots having to eventually fly...er, operate the A-321....Very sad that Boeing didn't create a 727- or 757-like airframe that was fast in cruise, slow in approach speeds, had actual cargo and cockpit space(and gear doors).

 

[HA25]

My condolences to Hawaiian pilots having to eventually fly...er, operate the A-321....Very sad that Boeing didn't create a 727- or 757-like airframe that was fast in cruise, slow in approach speeds, had actual cargo and cockpit space(and gear doors).

you got time in the Airbus?