Southwest's new plan to screw Airtran pilots

[General Lee]

Case in point. We all debate the issues with you Lee. We just don't agree with you and you take that not debating. What good is it to continue with someone that won't play fair but instead sling insults?

Fine, you think we are like Easties. We don't look at it that way and neither do many on the AT side. No matter how much time out of your life you donate to this subject you are not going to change the way anyone of us feel.

That seems obvious, but I will still bring up the injustices. Of course you don't think your side is like the Easties. They don't see their own problems either. You need to look at what happened with your own merger and acknowledge the parts that could have been handled better, and then try to get things done now that can help repair ties between your two groups. Don't stay in the dark, be proactive and figure it out.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

Again, many of your guys continually bring up the 83% number as to why the AT guys should be happy,

Again, show me where we have said they are happy based on the vote.

instead if understanding why they voted that way. Ask some of them, they will tell you.

They can speak for themselves and have. You don't need to speak for them or us.

As far as my personal "hatred" of SWA, that is simply not true. I say all of the time that I think SWA is a good company overall, with good pay. I used to think the relations with management were enviable, until the AT purchase.

I recall differently but OK.

Then I watched how management and SWAPA handled the merger talks (if you can call them that) and became a lot less impressed. Throw in the B scale and the unions seemingly lack of intention to speak out about keeping groups seperate (pay and operations) for a couple more years (unity?), and it just amplifies the injustice.

It is not a B scale. You use that term to inflame the situation. If you are sincere with healthy debate as you say you are then why not be truthful of what it is. Delta owned Comair at one time. SWA owns AT. Unlike Delta/Comair there is a plan to merge the two companies. This is what was negotiated. There is nothing anyone of us can do now and to cast blame on SWA pilots for your displeasure of this agreement is ignorant.

All I have ever stated was I would never want to do your type of flying. The pay is nice, but your flying doesn't interest me. That usually sends your group into a rage, demanding to know why someone wouldn't want exactly what you have.

It does because you purposely repeat it over and over and over again even starting unprovoked threads on the subject. You do it in an apparent way to try and insult us. And god is it old.

So, keep trying to not see the total picture with the AT guys, and stay in the dark about how bad this makes a lot of you guys look on FI. You probably just don't care, which seems prevalent amongst your group here.

Now Lee, in High School I was on the debate team and this would be a failing grade for good debate. You accuse almost everyone about not being to debate the issue. I think you really don't know what a healthy debate looks like. You need to admit that your style of debate is very unhealthy. Because it is.

 

[SWAdude]

That seems obvious, but I will still bring up the injustices. Of course you don't think your side is like the Easties. They don't see their own problems either. You need to look at what happened with your own merger and acknowledge the parts that could have been handled better, and then try to get things done now that can help repair ties between your two groups. Don't stay in the dark, be proactive and figure it out.

Apples and oranges Lee. We didn't agree to arbitration, get a result, and then use our numbers to create a different union because we were unhappy with the result. You do this to try and insult us for a result. That is your style of debate. It does not apply and don't see very many on this board agreeing with you on this one.

You are suggesting something impossible. We agreed that in two years we will be on the same pay scale. You need to move on from that. No matter how strong I feel for something different I will be wasting my time.

Lee, both sides have agreed to something no matter what the details are and that ship has sailed. There is nothing any one of us can do about that no different than Dalpa allowing non union labor flying airframes that say Delta Airlines on the side of their jet aircraft. Right?

 

[General Lee]

Apples and oranges Lee. We didn't agree to arbitration, get a result, and then use our numbers to create a different union because we were unhappy with the result. You do this to try and insult us for a result. That is your style of debate. It does not apply and don't see very many on this board agreeing with you on this one.

You are suggesting something impossible. We agreed that in two years we will be on the same pay scale. You need to move on from that. No matter how strong I feel for something different I will be wasting my time.

Lee, both sides have agreed to something no matter what the details are and that ship has sailed. There is nothing any one of us can do about that no different than Dalpa allowing non union labor flying airframes that say Delta Airlines on the side of their jet aircraft. Right?

Wasn't arbitration agreed to in the Process agreement? I thought GK agreed to it. In the end, it seems like angry words got to the better of some people, and the second offer was produced. When is that EVER good? Where was SWAPA then?

A quote from Lear:

"Secondly, it wasn't our MEC that put us in this position, it was Gary Kelly the day he wrote the letter that threatened non-integration and the slow spin-down of AirTran and our careers in violation of the Process Agreement. It's just that simple."

And I know both sides have "sailed", unfortunately SWAPA allowed a B-scale, which today is ridiculous. That should be worked on. If it isn't, it just seems like a form of punishment. Can you see why some AT people might be upset? Can ya?

And I'm sorry, but using the outsourcing analogy is just wrong. You do it too with Volaris. They take SWA pax in LA or MDW and take them to Guadalajara. They do. DL has had regional feed for 30 plus years, going to small cities that can't be fed by a mainline sized plane. Hub and spoke is totally different, because feed from small cities is different than your point to point stuff. In fact, you are dumping 17 AT cities that your people deemed unflyable. Can't you put 737s into Tunica? Why not? You know that. Quit trying to equate the two.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

General,

Do me a favor.

Go back to POST #55,

then read your response on POST #63.

You didn't talk about anything he brought up in post 55.

How are you supposed to be some 'master debater' when you completely dodge the other person and start slinging mud at his company? How do you think you win a debate that way?

 

[General Lee]

General,

Do me a favor.

Go back to POST #55,

then read your response on POST #63.

You didn't talk about anything he brought up in post 55.

How are you supposed to be some 'master debater' when you completely dodge the other person and start slinging mud at his company? How do you think you win a debate that way?

Red,

I responded plenty of times to that assinine post (55). First of all, you Corndogs are trying to equate DCI flying for a B-scale at SWA "with the same equipment." Not the same as DCI vs Mainline. You know that. DCI is not a part of our operating certificate, and AT will be or should have been by now, but your company didn't seem ready to integrate as fast as the other mergers (outdated computers? Can't do INTL on the res system?). DCI carriers float planes between the legacies, too. ASA had a lot more 50 seaters flying for DL a few years ago, and then dumped a lot over to UAL at IAD and ORD. How do you bargain for them when they can move their planes BETWEEN carriers? Obviously they aren't ONLY a DL Connection carrier. SkyWest actually has hybrid CRJs in their own livery that they sometimes use between UAL and DL if planes are broken. So, they use planes between the two. Get my point? AT will be BLENDED in with SWA, and on the same operating certificate. Not DCI and DL. I win. Try to debate that, and SWAdude too. One will be on the seniority list, one group (DCI) will NOT be. Big difference. A B-scale for the same equipment is BAD Red, BAD.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[U of I Tweak]

Your the idiot

You just keep trying to install fear in them that SWA will make pay for there training.

Does that come on a floppy? CD-ROM? Or is that something I download from the App Store?


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lear70]

What's a "floppy"? (real question from my 18 year old cousin the other day when I made a joke about how slow a program was loading). God we're old... lol

 

[SWAdude]

Red,

I responded plenty of times to that assinine post (55). First of all, you Corndogs are trying to equate DCI flying for a B-scale at SWA "with the same equipment." Not the same as DCI vs Mainline. You know that. DCI is not a part of our operating certificate, and AT will be or should have been by now, but your company didn't seem ready to integrate as fast as the other mergers (outdated computers? Can't do INTL on the res system?). DCI carriers float planes between the legacies, too. ASA had a lot more 50 seaters flying for DL a few years ago, and then dumped a lot over to UAL at IAD and ORD. How do you bargain for them when they can move their planes BETWEEN carriers? Obviously they aren't ONLY a DL Connection carrier. SkyWest actually has hybrid CRJs in their own livery that they sometimes use between UAL and DL if planes are broken. So, they use planes between the two. Get my point? AT will be BLENDED in with SWA, and on the same operating certificate. Not DCI and DL. I win. Try to debate that, and SWAdude too. One will be on the seniority list, one group (DCI) will NOT be. Big difference. A B-scale for the same equipment is BAD Red, BAD.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

Interesting how you took my post mimicking you. LOL!!

So you want to start in on code share internationally now? Probably not. And on that front we will be doing that flying also soon enough.

Your personal outsourcing rules don't apply to the game. Just because its not a "Like" airframe doesn't make it outsourcing lower wage pilots. That simply is not rational. And a very poor argument in any debate competition. You lose on that one harshly. The unions are the ones that established "acceptable" weight and seat numbers for their scope. There is no end game. And you even said for yourself, you have been doing this for thirty years! SWA pilots have NEVER had any intention of having an outsourced situation. That is why we negotiated industry leading scope language in our last contract. I have worked under a B-scale before and this is far from it. Maybe you need a little schooling on B-scales Lee. We will never have a SWA pilot and AT pilot fly in the same cockpit. In what you are mistaken about, a B-scale pilot will fly with a A- scale pilot. So your definition is wrong and you lose again. Ironically, Delta had a B-scale from 1986 to 1991. In the contract your pilots chose to give new pilots less money so they could expand and upgrade quicker at the expense of junior pilots. Nice group you have there Lee. Maybe you need to ask the Captain you are flying with to teach you how a B-scale actually works. He voted one in you know.

So, unless you are just stupid, SWA does not have a B-scale, unlike Delta we are not outsourcing our jobs, but we do have ONE international codeshare to FIVE cities. Boy is that going to bring pilot salaries down. LOL!!!

I have won this debate handily so be a man and find another one you have a shot at winning.

 

[vixin]

No, I knew a merger with SWA wouldn't go well for any carrier because SWAPA and its members are delusional a-holes. Best case scenario is for an arbitrated outcome that results in you guys crying like little babies and disrupting the carrier to show your displeasure. Worst case scenario is what happened to us: capitulation.

Nice! Please do us a favor and do not work one day at SWA. Your feelings about your future co workers will be well known. Stupid comments like that will last forever.

 

[General Lee]

Interesting how you took my post mimicking you. LOL!!

So you want to start in on code share internationally now? Probably not. And on that front we will be doing that flying also soon enough.

Your personal outsourcing rules don't apply to the game. Just because its not a "Like" airframe doesn't make it outsourcing lower wage pilots. That simply is not rational. And a very poor argument in any debate competition. You lose on that one harshly. The unions are the ones that established "acceptable" weight and seat numbers for their scope. There is no end game. And you even said for yourself, you have been doing this for thirty years! SWA pilots have NEVER had any intention of having an outsourced situation. That is why we negotiated industry leading scope language in our last contract. I have worked under a B-scale before and this is far from it. Maybe you need a little schooling on B-scales Lee. We will never have a SWA pilot and AT pilot fly in the same cockpit. In what you are mistaken about, a B-scale pilot will fly with a A- scale pilot. So your definition is wrong and you lose again. Ironically, Delta had a B-scale from 1986 to 1991. In the contract your pilots chose to give new pilots less money so they could expand and upgrade quicker at the expense of junior pilots. Nice group you have there Lee. Maybe you need to ask the Captain you are flying with to teach you how a B-scale actually works. He voted one in you know.

So, unless you are just stupid, SWA does not have a B-scale, unlike Delta we are not outsourcing our jobs, but we do have ONE international codeshare to FIVE cities. Boy is that going to bring pilot salaries down. LOL!!!

I have won this debate handily so be a man and find another one you have a shot at winning.

You haven't won anything. I think it's time you learned something about INTL code sharing. I actually flew my CEO from AMS to ATL and he came up to the cockpit and talked to us. I asked him personally about Skyteam and codesharing, and he stated we don't have the right to fly WITHIN other countries to pick up feed. We can't do 5 stops within China to gather up passengers and then take them to Detroit. We can't. So, we codeshare with those airlines so we can provide service to those smaller INTL cities we can go to. Same with AF and KL. They don't go to Las Vegas. They fly their pax to JFK or ATL, and then we take them onto LAS. It works both ways, and there are other big alliances out there (Star, One World) that will do it if we don't. It's about coverage for the business traveller.

See, your World used to be all about Texas. Then, it grew to the 48 contiguous States. Now, thanks to AT and their superior IT system, you can go to MEX and the Caribbean. Even though your ETOPS certificate is flat, maybe someday you'll try Hawaii, but that idea seems to have been squashed for some reason.


If you need more help understanding what the primary reason for codeahares is, just ask. You just can't fly everywhere you want Internationally. Your airline has freely expanded domestically for years, but you can't do that Internationally. But hey, you are contracting domestically lately (SEA and PHL), so maybe that is something you can work on....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Interesting how you took my post mimicking you. LOL!!

So you want to start in on code share internationally now? Probably not. And on that front we will be doing that flying also soon enough.

Your personal outsourcing rules don't apply to the game. Just because its not a "Like" airframe doesn't make it outsourcing lower wage pilots. That simply is not rational. And a very poor argument in any debate competition. You lose on that one harshly. The unions are the ones that established "acceptable" weight and seat numbers for their scope. There is no end game. And you even said for yourself, you have been doing this for thirty years! SWA pilots have NEVER had any intention of having an outsourced situation. That is why we negotiated industry leading scope language in our last contract. I have worked under a B-scale before and this is far from it. Maybe you need a little schooling on B-scales Lee. We will never have a SWA pilot and AT pilot fly in the same cockpit. In what you are mistaken about, a B-scale pilot will fly with a A- scale pilot. So your definition is wrong and you lose again. Ironically, Delta had a B-scale from 1986 to 1991. In the contract your pilots chose to give new pilots less money so they could expand and upgrade quicker at the expense of junior pilots. Nice group you have there Lee. Maybe you need to ask the Captain you are flying with to teach you how a B-scale actually works. He voted one in you know.

So, unless you are just stupid, SWA does not have a B-scale, unlike Delta we are not outsourcing our jobs, but we do have ONE international codeshare to FIVE cities. Boy is that going to bring pilot salaries down. LOL!!!

I have won this debate handily so be a man and find another one you have a shot at winning.

You haven't won anything. I think it's time you learned something about INTL code sharing. I actually flew my CEO from AMS to ATL and he came up to the cockpit and talked to us. I asked him personally about Skyteam and codesharing, and he stated we don't have the right to fly WITHIN other countries to pick up feed. We can't do 5 stops within China to gather up passengers and then take them to Detroit. We can't. So, we codeshare with those airlines so we can provide service to those smaller INTL cities we can go to. Same with AF and KL. They don't go to Las Vegas. They fly their pax to JFK or ATL, and then we take them onto LAS. It works both ways, and there are other big alliances out there (Star, One World) that will do it if we don't. It's about coverage for the business traveller.

See, your World used to be all about Texas. Then, it grew to the 48 contiguous States. Now, thanks to AT and their superior IT system, you can go to MEX and the Caribbean. Even though your ETOPS certificate is flat, maybe someday you'll try Hawaii, but that idea seems to have been squashed for some reason.


If you need more help understanding what the primary reason for codeahares is, just ask. You just can't fly everywhere you want Internationally. Your airline has freely expanded domestically for years, but you can't do that Internationally. But hey, you are contracting domestically lately (SEA and PHL), so maybe that is something you can work on....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Sy-bill]

No, actually you largely lost that debate GL. You can keep arguing but DAL is actually guilty of what you are inaccurately accusing SWA/swapa of doing.

 

[redflyer65]

Delta is the king of outsourcing. To try and compare SW to that operation is laughable.

The other funny part is PCL acts like SWAPA are bumbling idiots. When it's been ALPA over all these years that has allowed outsourcing and B-scales. SWAPA has long held the line when ALPA hasn't.

 

[PCL_128]

SWAPA has long held the line when ALPA hasn't.

SWAPA has never held the line on anything. They wouldn't know how to if it came down to it. Everything they have was given to them without a fight. And what they have ain't that great.