"What's next now for AA/US possible merger'

[General Lee]

It appears that I think a DUI will be my next move.

I couldn't agree more. Bravo!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Carl S.]

Looks like we are entering the USAPA SPIN MODE once again. Did the 9th say the Nic. was dead....NO and Silver looks to keep the lowest pay to the last day dreaming of entering a new SLI process for AWA/AAA... which could never use MB since it happen before that rule occured.

 

[General Lee]

From our friends at APC, a Westie named Cactiboss:



The company asked the court to answer counts 1 and 2, and if the court didn't answer either to give the company immunity from the west in count 3. Now this was a DJ case yet the judge said she wouldn't give the company a DJ, in fact the court today said it wouldn't answer any of the questions asked. So as of today, the company still does not have an answer, the judge basically deferred to the 9th's opinion. Negotiate and if usapa commits dfr you may be liable but we must wait for a contract to do that. Remember the west didn't sue, the company did, and they told the west attorneys they would appeal the decision and not negotiate.



And then another one from a guy named CactusMike: (from APC)


Well it was supposed to be an important day. Most of the Leonidas guys were there and some of our guys that have been an integral part of the West battle since day one of the merger were as well. We have had pretty good legal analysis from them. USAPA can put forth any list they want but any list that does not follow the Nicolau award will result in a ripe DFR suit. And now the company will be on the hook as well if they accept USAPAs DOH list since the company has already accepted the NIC list.

Judge Silver was aware that Judge Wake found USPA guilty of DFR. She was also aware that the 9th ruled that the DFR does not occur until a contract is put forth. She asked about a 3 way seniority integration with East, West and AA. Problem is there is no mechanism for the West to be represented by themselves since USAPA did away with ALPA and the separate MECs and separate ratification. Any USAPA attempt to deviate from the Nic in negotiating a SLI going forward would, again, be a DFR. Since we have Judge Wake's ruling behind us a new DFR suit would be a speedy trial.

Really, though, in the end this is about the company and their failure to exert leadership. We have a binding contract between the parties - the Transition Agreement (TA). That contract specified the SLI process. That process was followed. Anyone that deviated from that contract is now subject to breach of contract. If Parker wants to get this done then all he has to say is we will use the list that as produced as a result of the TA. That is is safest legal recourse. He has benefitted for 5 years by keeping the groups separate, saving hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, when he has the chance to make hundreds more by combining with AA do you think he will take the easy way or the hard way? I think he will take the easy way out and go with the Nic list in a future SLI with AA. Remember, he cannot be held at fault if he just uses the list produced as a result of the TA. That is the safe legal ground.



This will be very interesting to watch! Talk about a train wreck....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

No injunction. DUI will not delay anymore unless it makes him money. If he has a chance to put AA and USAPA together he will suddenly have amnesia about Nic. The majority of pilots are getting real tire of all the lawyer delays and realize that it ain't the courts that are holding things up anymore. Its time to move on. Its settled at least for the majority, and Silver reaffirmed democracy is still legal.

 

[Carl S.]

Settled for the majority will not float in the court of law. Stay tuned for several more years of LOA 93 for you and your majority....

 

[MCDU]

Settled for the majority will not float in the court of law. Stay tuned for several more years of LOA 93 for you and your majority....

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$. Enjoy being a permanent Flap operator. New hires East looking to upgrade 3-4 years. East hiring indefinitely. None of the new hires want to have 1600 westies ahead, especially since PHX will be gone. I guess the easiest would be just to sell PHX to Republic.

M

 

[ableone]

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$.

M

Yes but you get paid neither amount because you are just a Gulfstream Pretender who could not even hold on to a job you paid for.

Tell your Daddy hello.

 

[General Lee]

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$. Enjoy being a permanent Flap operator. New hires East looking to upgrade 3-4 years. East hiring indefinitely. None of the new hires want to have 1600 westies ahead, especially since PHX will be gone. I guess the easiest would be just to sell PHX to Republic.

M

I make more than you do as an FO. You are the laughing stock of the industry. And don't the West guys make more per hour on the same plane as the Easties (319/320/321)? You know they do.


Hey, here's a better article describing your mess:

Industrials



Judge to US Airways: Pilot Pact Can Eschew Disputed Seniority List
By Ted Reed 10/03/12 - 12:13 PM EDT




PHOENIX --(The STREET)-- A proposed decision by a U.S. District Court Judge in Phoenix could enable US Airways( and its pilots to restart contract negotiations, which ground to a halt five years ago because of a bitter battle over pilot seniority.



The proposed ruling, suggested Tuesday by Judge Roslyn Silver, apparently will say the airline and its pilots union can negotiate a contract that does not include an arbitrators' controversial 2007 seniority list. A dispute over the list has deeply separated pilots ever since the 2005 merger between USAirways and America West.


Silver's ruling would not, however, disenfranchise supporters of the list proposed by arbitrator George Nicolau. Rather, it would delay the possibility of legal action on a contract until a contract actually exists -- in the court's terms, until the issue is "ripe." In that regard, Silver reiterated the findings of a 2010 ruling by a U.S. Appeals Court in San Francisco, which had overruled a previous ruling on the simmering dispute by a different judge in the Phoenix court.

So the likelihood of further legal action -- by America West pilots, the airline, or both -- remains.


Silver on Tuesday heard a request by US Airways for a ruling on whether it must accept the Nicolau award or whether it can negotiate a contract that doesn't include the ruling. The carrier has said it simply wants to negotiate a contract without being liable afterwards.

The hearing lasted about an hour and 20 minutes. More than 100 pilots, nearly all of them from America West, attended, spilling over into the empty jury box where Silver allowed seating. She began the session by saying she had written a proposed ruling, then asked attorneys for the three parties -- the airline, USAPA, and the west pilot group - if they sought any alterations. She heard oral testimony and said she will issue a final ruling shortly.

Although pilots from predecessor US Airways agreed to binding arbitration on seniority, they generally felt so disenfranchised by Nicolau's list that they voted to leave the AirLinePilotsAssociation after 57 years and to create a new union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association. The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

In a statement following Tuesday's hearing, the USAPA declared that Silver's proposal "if it becomes final, will grant summary judgment to USAPA, holding that USAPA is free to pursue any seniority proposal, and need not advance the Nicolau award."

Reaching out to west pilots, USAPA said that its attorney "reiterated that USAPA was prepared to engage in serious, genuine discussions with the west pilots over the seniority proposal, and was hopeful the parties would continue to work together to achieve a new comprehensive collective bargaining agreement."


Added union President Gary Hummel: "USAPA stands ready to negotiate a contract for all of our 5,000 pilots, whether through a merger or otherwise. We are long overdue a contract that brings us up to par with our peers at other airlines such as Delta(DAL) and United(UAL). Now that this obstacle has been removed, we will immediately petition the National Mediation Board to resume Section 6 contract negotiations."


Mark Burman, spokesman for Leonidas, an association of west pilots, called USAPA's statement "a gross overstatement and a huge disservice to the pilot group.

"They are way ahead of the game," Burman said. "They want to say 'free at last, free at last,' but USAPA cannot legally evade 'the Nic' without a legitimate union objective and a modification to the transition agreement (between the carrier and its pilots.) This requires written agreement with the company. At present the company appears to know it has serious potential legal liability if it (agrees)."

A US Airways spokesman said the carrier would have no comment until Judge Silver issues her final ruling.

According to a former America West pilot who attended the hearing and asked not to be named, attorneys for the three parties presented these arguments: The US Airways attorney initially said the judge's proposed ruling does not sufficiently protect the carrier. The America West pilots' attorney said that if a new contract includes the date-of-hire seniority list espoused by USAPA, west pilots would consider that to be an indication of collusion between the carrier and USAPA. The USAPA attorney said the union takes seriously its duty to represent pilots from both groups.





Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MCDU]

The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

Nice. I think that is something every pilot should except and should not fight. Just like selling out scope. Just except it. Next code share and then cabotage. Except it and move on.That is the General way of doing things.

M

 

[General Lee]

The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

Nice. I think that is something every pilot should except and should not fight. Just like selling out scope. Just except it. Next code share and then cabotage. Except it and move on.That is the General way of doing things.

M

Hey, you sign up for binding arbitration, you follow the award. Nobody forced your guy (in charge of your own MEC) to sign up for it. Then the company agreed in the Transition agreement, meaning they also agreed to the eventual award. That is what is causing your company pause in doing any new contract with you. They may be free to negotiate now, but if the list is altered to your DOH stuff, it will be very costly. What does that mean? That means you continue at status quo, with below average wages. Oh well.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

Settled for the majority will not float in the court of law. Stay tuned for several more years of LOA 93 for you and your majority....

We can speculate all we want to about how broad a wide range of reasonableness is according to the SCOTUS, but the fact remains the only way to get an answer to that question is after a ratification. When the company wants to move forward they will. In the mean time enjoy your weekend.

 

[ableone]

The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

Nice. I think that is something every pilot should except and should not fight. Just like selling out scope. Just except it. Next code share and then cabotage. Except it and move on.That is the General way of doing things.

M

When the east pilots stupidly went all or nothing by not allowing their committee to do anything but shout DOH! DOH! DOH! during negotiations they set themselves up for failure.

When you shout all or nothing sometimes you get nothing.

Not to mention that MCDU, and a lot of east pilots, don't understand the difference between seniority and longevity.

That 17 year USAir pilot had no bidding power before nor after the list.

The east wanted to transform that 17 year bottom FO reserve into a lineholding captain at the expense of west pilots.

They wanted to steal jobs. They had no integrity and apparently neither do their spoiled children (MCDU).

BTW MCDU did you go to college because you don't seem to know the difference between except and accept. Good thing there is not an essay portion on airline application forms. Oh wait! I forgot! You don't fly for an airline.

 

[Goodstick]

Quick question for the US Air folks from a future AA'r. If there is a merger with AA, do you anticipate all the quarrels to continue except in three ways? There has to be a way to find common ground? Maybe have APA represent?

 

[JetMonkey]

Quick question for the US Air folks from a future AA'r. If there is a merger with AA, do you anticipate all the quarrels to continue except in three ways? There has to be a way to find common ground? Maybe have APA represent?

There can't be a "three way" because the west has no representation for that senario..

 

[reepicheep]

I thought the most controversial part of the award was that 15 junky little mini-widebodies somehow equated to 517 pilot slots, and they all - FO & IRO slots included - went to the top. The east is right; he is a crazy senile old man.

 

[General Lee]

I thought the most controversial part of the award was that 15 junky little mini-widebodies somehow equated to 517 pilot slots, and they all - FO & IRO slots included - went to the top. The east is right; he is a crazy senile old man.

The East agreed to Nicalau as the arbitrator, and before he gave the award, he gave huge hints to the Easties to revise some of their wants, and they didn't take his advice. Your MEC chair at the time blew it, and you Easties put him there. It's your fault! Sad but true. So, don't agree to binding arbitration if you won't accept the award.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[charlie2]

The East agreed to Nicalau as the arbitrator, and before he gave the award, he gave huge hints to the Easties to revise some of their wants, and they didn't take his advice. Your MEC chair at the time blew it, and you Easties put him there. It's your fault! Sad but true. So, don't agree to binding arbitration if you won't accept the award.


Bye Bye---General Lee

That's why we don't have an MEC any more...I'm not sure what part you're not understanding Private.

 

[eaglesview]

You are way too wrapped up in this to just be a Delta pilot. Either you are shacking with a AWA pilot, you are just a paid instigator, or you are the original "Move2Clt", natural born hater.

I was thinking the same thing, why does he care so much.

 

[General Lee]

I was thinking the same thing, why does he care so much.

Maybe I have good friends who are West (AWA) pilots? Maybe I think the Easties are a bunch of wheenies because they disregarded BINDING arbitration? If you don't care, you should ask yourself, why not? It can affect all of us, people just disregarding agreements within our profession. It was totally wrong, and they need to pay for that, and they will eventually. Talk about giving a handshake and crossing your fingers behind your back......but I guess you don't really care.....you have other things on your mind obviously...



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[eaglesview]

I have had several binding agreements with UAL and in other arenas in my life. Some of them were broken. Life happens

 

[TWA Dude]

Thanks for trying once again to rationalize the East's actions. USAPA apologist.

 

[eaglesview]

No sweat, anytime.

 

[Count Dracula]

Hey Sulley. Anyways.......You guys were going to EAT it or go CHAP 7. Them's is the facts. AWA got a mortgage and bought your butts. They did. You then agreed on binding arbitration, and your MEC chair even said NIC was a good guy to do it. Then, when NIC was ready to give his award, he told your guy to come around and try to work it out. Did your guy take NIC's advice? NOPE. IDIOTS. You could have changed the pay, the work rules, etc with a NEW contract, but instead, your A320 Captains make less per hour than I do. What a joke. You guys have helped ruin this profession by showing you can say NO to a handshake, a BINDING award that honorable men would abide to because they AGREED to it. But NOOOOOOOO, you instead are just a joke.


Bye Bye---General Lee

This profession was doomed years ago General when the likes of Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am went....Bye Bye as you say. Where were all the Union brothers then? That's right...they were trying to figure out what boat to upgrade to or what lake to buy their cabin on for the summer. Your worried about a BINDING award? There's no LOYALTY, let alone anything BINDING in this profession. Go watch another episode of American Greed.....you'll see some BINDING there. Have a nice day!

 

[JumpersAway]

So, in an effort to stop the laundering of the same ole' dirty laundry, can we get back on topic here? What is next with American and USAirways? I'm beginning to wonder if American will even be around to merge with soon.........

 

[General Lee]

This profession was doomed years ago General when the likes of Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am went....Bye Bye as you say. Where were all the Union brothers then? That's right...they were trying to figure out what boat to upgrade to or what lake to buy their cabin on for the summer. Your worried about a BINDING award? There's no LOYALTY, let alone anything BINDING in this profession. Go watch another episode of American Greed.....you'll see some BINDING there. Have a nice day!

Thanks Orville Wright! You sound really old and "experienced", grandpa. It's 5pm, time for you to go to bed! I can't wait for the East to get smacked eventually, and at least you are keeping your below average pay. Couldn't happen to a better group!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[vetrider]

Thanks for trying once again to rationalize the East's actions. USAPA apologist.

Eastiesview.

 

[JECKEL]

Now that Comair is gone General Lee has to have somewhere else to spread his hatred and contempt.
Looks like he has set his sights on the U*S Air east coast.

 

[B-atch]

The Generals obvious Impotence manifests itself by his habitual venting on matters in which he "lacks control".. I didn't come up with this. Sigmund Freud would have a field day with the general..

 

[General Lee]

The Generals obvious Impotence manifests itself by his habitual venting on matters in which he "lacks control".. I didn't come up with this. Sigmund Freud would have a field day with the general..

Hahahahaha! I just like picking on jerks. You guys fit the bill. If you sign up for anything BINDING, follow it. Otherwise, everyone thinks you lack integrity and are complete losers. I bet the APA will watch you like a hawk, and if you do merge, their larger numbers plus the Westies will vote away your precious "union", and I will be laughing. Enjoy your continued train wreck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Angus Khan]

There's nothing to say about the merger because all parties involved have to keep their mouths shut at this time. I think this means it's serious and likely going to be announced before the end of the year. IMO.
And, as a former Tway guy sitting at the bottom of AA's forever stagnant seniority list, I fully anticipate the merger will suck, promises will be broken, a bunch of us will lose our jobs again, and every effort will be made to protect the lifestyle and bennies of the top 30% of the seniority lists. That's the way it works in this giant pyramid scheme of a career. Past performance doesn't guarantee future returns, but it sure seems that way.