HA vs. AS

[HAL]

...and to ad to this, with 48 hotel rooms a night in both HNL and OGG, don't be hugely surprised with a base on the islands at some point.

Mookie

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

 

[Mookie]

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

We do hnl and ogg out of BLI, Sea, pdx, smf, oak, sjc, and SAN now. Not saying its a great idea, but an islands base looks like a potential.

Mookie

 

[Ocity]

I have my stuff in...we'll see what happens. Some things have changed on my personal side that makes it possible where HA wasn't really an option before...we'll see.

It's true that AS's growth seems less scary, but that being said...it's also less scary to have more people under you on the seniority list when things go south.

AS is more financially sound then HA...for sure...AS pays cash for our new airplanes, HA is yet to secure financing on the remainging A330/A350's....we have much lower debt, "approaching Southwest levels" as one analyst put it. But to me that means that management at HA is on the same page as the pilots...this growth HAS to work. Because AS owns 30 airplanes outright and doesn't owe as much money...it's a no brainer for management to park them in the desert or sell them to Asia the minute things go south. All of this financial soundness/security has been great for the stockholders, but has not benefited the pilots one bit. We had 10% of our pilots on the street during a time that Alaska Airlines was THE MOST PROFITABLE it has ever been.



If I was hired this past December at HA, I would be at the same relative seniority that I am at Alaska now at over 5 years. If I were to get in one of these first few classes of this next push, I would be slightly better off in relative seniority at HA then I would be at AS in 2 years under managements current plans.

BUT...on the flip side...I hate interviewing, I don't want to go through another probation period, I'm just getting used to the idea of 21 days of vacation a year...not to mention the 100K+ financial loss over the first couple of years...although I do have a plan to mitigate that...what if the music stops before the two years is up.

BUT if similar management stays in place over the next 30 years, I see this continued strategy of anemic growth in airframes in good times with flat or even shrinking numbers of airframes...all while hitting managements target of 6% growth of ASM's. I think we will see another option exercise here in the next few months and I think it will be 900ER's and I think it will be to replace our remaining 700's and 400's. A 900ER has about FIFTY more seats than a 700. Can you say 5 more years of stagnation.

BUT the turtle beat the hare!

Ahhhh!!!!!!!!

I've got 9.5 years in and missed upgrade by just over 100 numbers on the last bid. This is assuming I'd be willing to sit reserve in ANC which hell would freeze over before I did that. I was planning on holding out until I could hold open flying in PDX or LAX so I'm guessing I'm about 4-5 years out still. Of course all of this can change as I sit here. The one thing I do know is Age 65 F'd all of us over. Make the move that you think will make you most happy. Trying to dissect all the minutiae in the financial details is completely pointless. It will all change. Period.

We've hit some really rough patches with the Eskimo over the last several years...Kasher nearly sunk this place, but over all, I'm blessed to be here. I believe we're on the right track and I absolutely believe that we now have the best CEO and exec.team we could have. I'd say we have a better shot at a bright, sustainable, viable future than most other pilot groups on the planet...for now. If you find that crystal ball on Ebay let me know.

 

[Stinkbug]

HA window closed?

Hawaiian Airlines' jobs page no longer showing an open position for flight crew. Just checked and thought I'd pass it along.

 

[Junkflyer]

The window closed on the 10th. Small class begins on the 25th, not sure how or when they were selected.

 

[igneousy2]

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

First off...our pilot group would never tolerate a co-base as you are describing...jumpseating to an assignment on an outer-island is a clear violation of our Jumpseat agreement with HA. This is not Mesa.

As far as a Hawaii base...there has been extensive talk of a reserve base in HNL or OGG as a CX costs over 30K or so management says. Also...AS hates to be late and a short sick call means a minimum of a 8-10 hours to get a reserve to Hawaii.

We are having a difficult time finding enough hotel rooms on Maui at a reasonable price as we are looking at our 3rd hotel there already.

HNL makes more sense from a reserve standpoint but a OGG base solves the hotel problem. If we do a Hawaii base it will be more to have the reserves in the islands.

 

[turbodriver]

As far as a Hawaii base...there has been extensive talk of a reserve base in HNL or OGG as a CX costs over 30K or so management says.

Whats your source?

 

[igneousy2]

Whats your source?

COO...I heard it about a year ago and it was repeated recently at a flight ops dog and pony show. Not to say that they are GOING to do one, but that they have been studying it as a reserve base and if they did it it would be more for the reserves than anything else. Also said as more flights were added it probably makes more and more sense. Take it for what it's worth, I heard they were studying a PDX base for 20 years (...note sarcasim) before it actually happened.

 

[Dan Roman]

Food for thought. If living in Hawaii is what is at stake and you are factoring in AK maybe having a Hi base.....Hawaiian you know you will always have that option. Every mainland airline that has ever had a crew base in Hawaii eventually closed it. Also, you would be limited to what ever you could hold at the small base and not be able to pursue the more options available at other domiciles. Unless you wanted to commute.
On one hand, at AK you could commute easily enough and bid trips to Hawaii, you're home getting per diem on work days, which isn't bad. We have quite a few pilots that commute to the NW and bid PDX layovers to be home. But on the other hand commuting is still a bummer.
I will say this, although I would be careful about giving up a number with AK to start over at any airline, all the airlines left will survive. The music has stopped with airline liquidations due to overcapacity and we (the handful of airlines left) are the ones left with a chair. Mergers are still possible but I really think HA and AK have a strong enough niche that we will both dodge that bullet. The reason AK's stock is doing so well is not because it's a potential takeover target, it's doing well because it has a strong niche as Alaska Airlines and is well managed.
I will say this, If you really want to live in Hawaii, any number with Hawaiian is a good one. Personally, I would rather be an F/O with Hawaiian than number one at any other airline, personal choice, but I am a lifestyle over money person.
Anyway, more food for thought to confuse you!

 

[Full of LUV]

Food for thought. If living in Hawaii is what is at stake and you are factoring in AK maybe having a Hi base.....Hawaiian you know you will always have that option. Every mainland airline that has ever had a crew base in Hawaii eventually closed it. Also, you would be limited to what ever you could hold at the small base and not be able to pursue the more options available at other domiciles. Unless you wanted to commute.
On one hand, at AK you could commute easily enough and bid trips to Hawaii, you're home getting per diem on work days, which isn't bad. We have quite a few pilots that commute to the NW and bid PDX layovers to be home. But on the other hand commuting is still a bummer.
I will say this, although I would be careful about giving up a number with AK to start over at any airline, all the airlines left will survive. The music has stopped with airline liquidations due to overcapacity and we (the handful of airlines left) are the ones left with a chair. Mergers are still possible but I really think HA and AK have a strong enough niche that we will both dodge that bullet. The reason AK's stock is doing so well is not because it's a potential takeover target, it's doing well because it has a strong niche as Alaska Airlines and is well managed.
I will say this, If you really want to live in Hawaii, any number with Hawaiian is a good one. Personally, I would rather be an F/O with Hawaiian than number one at any other airline, personal choice, but I am a lifestyle over money person.
Anyway, more food for thought to confuse you!

Now that is a strong testament! F/O at HAL vs #1 at any other airline!

Your right though if you have to live in Hawaii, there is no other option. The reason many had a Hawaii base and closed it (besides the expense) is because technology and equipment have made it obsolete.
My dad was a controller in HNL during the late 60's and 70's, and for awhile, HNL was among the busiest 24 hour airports in the world. Until the whale became the norm in the pacific, everyone had to stop in Hawaii on the way to the far east.

Bottom line in my opinion is the pain that will be felt going to Hawaii on a Guppy vs a widebody, which is quickly becoming the standard and will only be exasperated by the addition of SWA to Hawaii someday, will probably make commuting to/from the islands almost unbearable. Thank GOD HAL has maintained or appears to plan to maintain widebody service to the islands.
LUV

 

[Dan Roman]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hawaiian-says-gday-brisbane-adding-190000982.html

 

[Mamma]

Now that is a strong testament! F/O at HAL vs #1 at any other airline!

Your right though if you have to live in Hawaii, there is no other option. The reason many had a Hawaii base and closed it (besides the expense) is because technology and equipment have made it obsolete.
My dad was a controller in HNL during the late 60's and 70's, and for awhile, HNL was among the busiest 24 hour airports in the world. Until the whale became the norm in the pacific, everyone had to stop in Hawaii on the way to the far east.

Bottom line in my opinion is the pain that will be felt going to Hawaii on a Guppy vs a widebody, which is quickly becoming the standard and will only be exasperated by the addition of SWA to Hawaii someday, will probably make commuting to/from the islands almost unbearable. Thank GOD HAL has maintained or appears to plan to maintain widebody service to the islands.
LUV

I've traveled on the 737-800 to Kauai and Oahu and it has been fine. Alaska has good pitch so I was not crammed in. I'm just saying I don't see where you are getting this "pain" and unbearable hardship flying a 73 to Hawaii.

 

[Old School 737]

I've traveled on the 737-800 to Kauai and Oahu and it has been fine. Alaska has good pitch so I was not crammed in. I'm just saying I don't see where you are getting this "pain" and unbearable hardship flying a 73 to Hawaii.

I think our new airplanes have some new Racarro seats and you end up with 1in more legroom than we have now.....

 

[Full of LUV]

I've traveled on the 737-800 to Kauai and Oahu and it has been fine. Alaska has good pitch so I was not crammed in. I'm just saying I don't see where you are getting this "pain" and unbearable hardship flying a 73 to Hawaii.

Jumpseat 737 vs Jumpseat 757/767 or A330.

There is a considerable difference, and you cant count on a seat in back to/from Hawaii all that often.

 

[Boxboy]

Fortunately for us, our excellent service makes up for the lack of a wide body jet. I agree though... as a passenger, given a choice between a wide body and a narrow body, I'd choose the biggin' for sure!

 

[CesnaCaptn]

I think our new airplanes have some new Racarro seats and you end up with 1in more legroom than we have now.....

Pax will see the narrow seats and perceive that they are less comfortable. Then they'll have something else to complain about.

People keep piling on about how an AS Hawaii base is inevitable. If that's true, I think igneousy2 wins either way.

I don't think a HI base is as much of a no brainer as people make it out to be. True, a cancellation costs $30K+, but do you know how much it costs to staff reserves? I recently flew with a pilot on the NC and we talked about putting an all-night zone in LAX to staff the Mexico turns. We talked about mitigating fatigue by keeping pilots flying on the same side of the clock. He said staffing that zone was going to cost $1M+. He didn't give me a time frame. I'm guessing over a year? If the stat is true that one zone costs $100K/month, then now we know how many cancellations we need each month in the islands to justify a reserve base out there. Are we there yet?

We do hnl and ogg out of BLI, Sea, pdx, smf, oak, sjc, and SAN now. Not saying its a great idea, but an islands base looks like a potential.

Mookie

To clarify, we fly to HNL or OGG out of each of those cities. We don't do HNL out of SMF and we don't do OGG out of BLI (yet, hopefully).

If we put a base in the Bay (maybe include SMF?) and SAN, then we have a crew base on each end of the HI flights except BLI and maybe SMF. I think a bigger factor than hotel costs is soft time. I'd like to know how much soft time is affected by putting bases in the Bay and SAN. I've heard from multiple sources that a base could be financially justified in the Bay, SAN and HNL, but I wonder how the cost justification changes as you open up each of those bases.

As for cancellations in the islands go, has anyone seen first hand what happens if someone calls in sick out there? I'm guessing it's rare. Do they start rolling crews? Are we really able to deadhead a pilot out to fly back in the same duty day? I know our contract allows for us to fly up to 16 hours transoceanic, but has anyone seen someone scheduled to that?

Jumpseat 737 vs Jumpseat 757/767 or A330.

There is a considerable difference, and you cant count on a seat in back to/from Hawaii all that often.

Remember when UA ran rope start 747s back in the late 90s and early 00s. That was the way to go. You would get your own crew rest area and lav in the flight deck.

I'll pass on the 757 jumpseat. That's just as bad as the 737 unless you make the "lounge."

 

[cougarblue]

back to the OP- does anyone know if Hawaiian or Alaskan have buddy passes? what are the average days off at each?

Thanks in advance!

 

[becket]

back to the OP- does anyone know if Hawaiian or Alaskan have buddy passes? what are the average days off at each?

Thanks in advance!

If Alaska ever finds out you referred to them as "Alaskan" it's a moot point for you. They wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole after that. Big No-No.

 

[Mookie]

Alaskan brews a mean ipa...

 

[igneousy2]

back to the OP- does anyone know if Hawaiian or Alaskan have buddy passes? what are the average days off at each?

Thanks in advance!

Yes, they both do, I don't know how many HA gets but you get 24 one ways on AS.

...seriouslly...get "Alaskan" out of your vocabulary if you're going to interview here...there are some stories...not sure if it would sink you anymore...but why take the chance.

An "average" line holder at AS gets from 14-16 days off per month. It can be as low as 10 and as high as 20.

Reserve has 12 days off per month consisting of a 5 day block and a 3 day block which are "untouchable" and two 2-day blocks...of which they can only encroach into one.

Line holders and long-call reserves get 75 hours min/month and reserves get 79.

Good luck.

 

[igneousy2]

I can see how it can cost 1.0 million to staff a zone.

so say 2 zones in Hawaii at 2.0 million divided by 30,000 a cx and that is 33 a year or 2.7ish a month. That doesn't seem like that high a hurdle.

The best part about the new seats is the fact that when the person in front of you "reclines" there seat...it slides the seat cushion forward instead of the seat-back backwards...so they can now recline all they want and take up there own space instead of the people's behind them space. I can't wait for the seats. I don't know why they just don't pin all the seatbacks full upright anyway. I would take having to sit upright instead of having the seat in front of me in my knees anytime.

 

[AK737FO]

Alaskan brews a nice Stout...

 

[cougarblue]

well obviously I wouldn't get hired on at Alaskan, what about Hawaiian? How many buddy passes do they get? Do buddies still pay a fee to use them? What are schedules on the 330 like? I understand the 717 has an AM shift and a PM shift... very cool

thanks igneously2 for your previous response!

 

[cougarblue]

Also could someone chime in about the make up of the pilot group at Hawaiian & Alaska? Just curious about how old they are and the potential for seniority movement should the growth come to a halt. I have seen the numbers on Alaska over at airline pilot central but haven't ever heard or seen anything on Hawaiian

Thanks again in advance for any insight you may have

 

[Mookie]

Also could someone chime in about the make up of the pilot group at Hawaiian & Alaska? Just curious about how old they are and the potential for seniority movement should the growth come to a halt. I have seen the numbers on Alaska over at airline pilot central but haven't ever heard or seen anything on Hawaiian

Thanks again in advance for any insight you may have

Lots of mouth breathers here at Alaskan...

Mookie

 

[Rhino]

no transoceanic

Cessna Capt,

We do not fly Transoceanic at Alaska Airlines. That would be all the way to Asia. We only go "halfway" there. So, those longer duty and rest numbers do not apply.

So no, a pilot can't DH and then fly the leg back to the mainland. No matter how you slice it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a morning zone/ evening zone reserve type of base in HNL someday. Soon? Maybe. As for now, they just call another crew that is already there and it is a re-assignment out of base (domino effect). That gives them more time to get another crewmember out there.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Cessna Capt,

We do not fly Transoceanic at Alaska Airlines. That would be all the way to Asia. We only go "halfway" there. So, those longer duty and rest numbers do not apply.

So no, a pilot can't DH and then fly the leg back to the mainland. No matter how you slice it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a morning zone/ evening zone reserve type of base in HNL someday. Soon? Maybe. As for now, they just call another crew that is already there and it is a re-assignment out of base (domino effect). That gives them more time to get another crewmember out there.

I guess this is a stupid question, but what makes you think flying to Hawaii isn't transoceanic? Has the company or the union made an interpretation? Would ANC-Japan be transoceanic? How about HNL-NAN(Fiji) as CAL used to do? In your mind, does HA do any transoceanic flying, or do you think they don't since all of their widebody flights begin or end in HNL?

I just reread that section of the contract and a pilot must still be scheduled for less than a 12:30 duty day making this conversation practically moot. What "longer duty day and rest rules" are you referring to? We already operate those flights under flag rules.

 

[Boxboy]

Hawaii to the mainland is the longest over water leg in the world without an alternate. I would say that it qualifies as "transoceanic".

 

[becket]

Hawaii to the mainland is the longest over water leg in the world without an alternate. I would say that it qualifies as "transoceanic".

The company and the globe would say you were incorrect.

 

[Rhino]

Management and the Association agree that flying to Hawaii is not Trans-Oceanic. What I think has nothing to do with it.

Section 12
Hours of Service​

3.

Trans-Oceanic: When a pilot is scheduled within the above

limitations on a trans-ocean flight, the duty requirement which
he need not exceed shall be increased to sixteen hours(16).​

D. ​

​

Rest

​

​

... ​

​

b. Trans-Oceanic: When a pilot is assigned to fly a transocean

flight, his on-duty period may not be broken by an
off-duty period of less than fourteen hours (14) block-in​

to block-out.


​

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