HA vs. AS

[igneousy2]

Are you thinking about the jump back to Hawaii/HAL?

No one has the proverbial crystal ball but both places seem good right now.

Alaska's growth seems less scary, HAL hopefully can sustain what so far has been a good and slightly profitable boom.

I have my stuff in...we'll see what happens. Some things have changed on my personal side that makes it possible where HA wasn't really an option before...we'll see.

It's true that AS's growth seems less scary, but that being said...it's also less scary to have more people under you on the seniority list when things go south.

AS is more financially sound then HA...for sure...AS pays cash for our new airplanes, HA is yet to secure financing on the remainging A330/A350's....we have much lower debt, "approaching Southwest levels" as one analyst put it. But to me that means that management at HA is on the same page as the pilots...this growth HAS to work. Because AS owns 30 airplanes outright and doesn't owe as much money...it's a no brainer for management to park them in the desert or sell them to Asia the minute things go south. All of this financial soundness/security has been great for the stockholders, but has not benefited the pilots one bit. We had 10% of our pilots on the street during a time that Alaska Airlines was THE MOST PROFITABLE it has ever been.



If I was hired this past December at HA, I would be at the same relative seniority that I am at Alaska now at over 5 years. If I were to get in one of these first few classes of this next push, I would be slightly better off in relative seniority at HA then I would be at AS in 2 years under managements current plans.

BUT...on the flip side...I hate interviewing, I don't want to go through another probation period, I'm just getting used to the idea of 21 days of vacation a year...not to mention the 100K+ financial loss over the first couple of years...although I do have a plan to mitigate that...what if the music stops before the two years is up.

BUT if similar management stays in place over the next 30 years, I see this continued strategy of anemic growth in airframes in good times with flat or even shrinking numbers of airframes...all while hitting managements target of 6% growth of ASM's. I think we will see another option exercise here in the next few months and I think it will be 900ER's and I think it will be to replace our remaining 700's and 400's. A 900ER has about FIFTY more seats than a 700. Can you say 5 more years of stagnation.

BUT the turtle beat the hare!

Ahhhh!!!!!!!!

 

[AK737FO]

I don't understand how you can be so doom and gloom when our company is literally kickin A$$ and takin names. A pay raise is on the way in the next contract, PBP will continue to chip in another 5+% each year, and in about 3 years you can be a Captain if you want.
If you would rather live in HI, then I understand. But if you're thinking of swapping companies looking for greener grass, I think you will experience an epic fail.

 

[igneousy2]

I don't understand how you can be so doom and gloom when our company is literally kickin A$$ and takin names. A pay raise is on the way in the next contract, PBP will continue to chip in another 5+% each year, and in about 3 years you can be a Captain if you want.
If you would rather live in HI, then I understand. But if you're thinking of swapping companies looking for greener grass, I think you will experience an epic fail.

Hawaii is the major factor with HA true...but, how are you figuring 3 years to upgrade? Im at 1300 currently...how is that 3 or even 4 years from here? I'm not really concerned with upgrade..but shouldn't I be able to holster least hold any base I want with a line by now. Captain in 3 years??? I'm not sure I could hold a line in SEA by then.

Our company is kickin ass and taking names...profit wise...but I'm not as hopeful seniority list movement wise.

Anyway...didn't intend for this to be a flame...just presenting what I see.

 

[Dan Roman]

FWIW Igneousy, clearly you have a number with a solid airline and to give that up would be no small decision. Alaska seems as solid as they come right now. Hawaiian is in very good shape too. The reality is the biggest risk to anyone on the bottom of either airline is the potential of a merger. Although if someone bought Alaska they would have to be financially sound enough to do it, which probably means a solid future down the road and they would also be planning a strong presence in the N.W. The same line of thinking applies to HA.
The only reason I could see jumping to HA would be to live in Hawaii. Those of us that do and love it wouldn't change seniority numbers with anyone. It's been well worth it even when HA was on thin ice and paid less than most.
I had to laugh at your anology about surfers, (I am a life long surfer and live on the North Shore), but we have plenty here that don't surf and love living here. It is expensive, (about on par with SFO?) but that also means you can make some very good real estate investments over time. Many do, if you get in the market, you will have something to show for it. It sounds like you have lived here, so you know the score. Although it is getting more and more crowded. Intersting to note, we have a LOT of retired HA pilots that now live in the NW. Personally, I really like the NW and could live there if I didn't like Hawaii and surfing so much.
I do know a guy who quit Alaska, he went to Aloha and is now at Hawaiian in a position to upgrade in a few years. I also know someone who quit HA to go to AK. The moral being you never know what will happen, so I would suggest planning on a lifestyle you want and than do what you can to support it. If you really miss Hawaii and want to live here, Hawaiians a very good gig. You would probably be A330 F/O with great trips in a reasonably short time. We are getting 15 more and have reduced the amount of 767's we are parking. Every new city we have gone to is doing well. Our management has about a 90% approval rate by the employees (you can always find someone to complain though). Most here are quite happy to be here. Any new city we add will be interesting. You should fly up the list, but any change is a gamble. HA is definitely expanding aggressively and that that is always a little scary, but so far the are doing it right and it seems to be working quit well.

 

[Boxboy]

Hawaii is the major factor with HA true...but, how are you figuring 3 years to upgrade? Im at 1300 currently...how is that 3 or even 4 years from here? I'm not really concerned with upgrade..but shouldn't I be able to holster least hold any base I want with a line by now. Captain in 3 years??? I'm not sure I could hold a line in SEA by then.

Our company is kickin ass and taking names...profit wise...but I'm not as hopeful seniority list movement wise.

Anyway...didn't intend for this to be a flame...just presenting what I see.

Dude, I say do what makes sense to YOU and what makes you happy. I think HAL is a great place to work, especially if you want to live in Hawaii! They definitely have the variety of flying that AS doesn't offer-island hopping, mainland, and real international flying moving big iron (I, for one, don't ever care to fly long hauls..... been there done that). HAL seems to have a better growth plan than AS and they are actually following through with it.
As for AS, it's a good place to work, as long as they keep the SoCal base open . AS, IMHO, doesn't have the talent or the balls to grow. They sure talk the talk but can't even crawl the walk, if you know what I mean. Growth to them is re-allocating jets from one market to another. I'll believe it when I see it and so far, I haven't seen a whole lot to convince me otherwise. Whatever choice you make, I don't think that you can go wrong. Both companies are viable companies and both are small enough to be swallowed by a giant. Good luck!

 

[Full of LUV]

Hawaii is the major factor with HA true...but, how are you figuring 3 years to upgrade? Im at 1300 currently...how is that 3 or even 4 years from here? I'm not really concerned with upgrade..but shouldn't I be able to holster least hold any base I want with a line by now. Captain in 3 years??? I'm not sure I could hold a line in SEA by then.

Our company is kickin ass and taking names...profit wise...but I'm not as hopeful seniority list movement wise.

Anyway...didn't intend for this to be a flame...just presenting what I see.

One last thing, if you have kids and they have aptitude, don't forget to factor in $16K for private school (at least for high school). Most places with high cost of living have good schools to go along, HI has high cost of living and not so great public schools unless you live in Kahala or have no college intentions.....Beautiful place to live, but you realize quickly that all the politicians and power brokers use private schools (some of the most prevalent and best in the country, just as the president, a Punahou grad) so the public high schools are here to take attendance.
LUV

 

[AK737FO]

Prior to age 65, upgrade time around here was about 8 years. Today it is running 11 years. The company has said (and our MEC concurs with their numbers) that they will hire about 100 per year till the cows come home. As we start loosing our blue haired gummers it will accelerate.
It is hard to wrap my mind around it, but if these numbers hold true (no terrorists, no accidents, no major world problems) you and I should go up 300 numbers in the next three years. What will that do for you? I think we will see upgrade time come back down into the 8 to 9 year range over the next 3 to 4 years.
If HI is calling you, by all means go live your life where you feel you need to live it, but don't kid yourself about AK being stagnant.

 

[Mookie]

Prior to age 65, upgrade time around here was about 8 years. Today it is running 11 years. The company has said (and our MEC concurs with their numbers) that they will hire about 100 per year till the cows come home. As we start loosing our blue haired gummers it will accelerate.
It is hard to wrap my mind around it, but if these numbers hold true (no terrorists, no accidents, no major world problems) you and I should go up 300 numbers in the next three years. What will that do for you? I think we will see upgrade time come back down into the 8 to 9 year range over the next 3 to 4 years.
If HI is calling you, by all means go live your life where you feel you need to live it, but don't kid yourself about AK being stagnant.

...and to ad to this, with 48 hotel rooms a night in both HNL and OGG, don't be hugely surprised with a base on the islands at some point.

Mookie

 

[igneousy2]

Thanks for all of the replies.

Dan...I am originally from Hawaii, and you're right, there are a lot of people that enjoy the Hawaii livestyle...and some are not even surfers, some golf and fish to that being said, for every one that loves the life, there are 3 that don't make it and leave.

AK737...I don't mean to be all doom-and-gloom but I just cannot see how you can get to 3 years from here for an upgrade for anybody in the bottom 10% of our seniority list. And that's if you're willing to commute to ANC. Add another 2-3 years for whatever number you pick if you want a southern base. I would be willing to bet that for those of us that were furloughed, we are all looking at a 12-14 year upgrade when all is said and done. These early new hires I think will be looking at a relatively rapid upgrade...probably 6 years.

I don't know if the bid results came out yet for the big bid HA just had but my prediction is a 4 year 717 Captain on this bid. Let me know Dan.

Take care....and thanks again for the posts. If i'm lucky enough to get selected, I'm sure i'll be "hemming-and-hahing" all the way until I've handed in my resignation letter.

Take care.

 

[Junkflyer]

Results not out yet. Lots of speculation, but it does seem a four year (the first or second 2008 class) will be very close to or in the left seat of one of the airplane types.

 

[HAL]

...and to ad to this, with 48 hotel rooms a night in both HNL and OGG, don't be hugely surprised with a base on the islands at some point.

Mookie

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

 

[Mookie]

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

We do hnl and ogg out of BLI, Sea, pdx, smf, oak, sjc, and SAN now. Not saying its a great idea, but an islands base looks like a potential.

Mookie

 

[Ocity]

I have my stuff in...we'll see what happens. Some things have changed on my personal side that makes it possible where HA wasn't really an option before...we'll see.

It's true that AS's growth seems less scary, but that being said...it's also less scary to have more people under you on the seniority list when things go south.

AS is more financially sound then HA...for sure...AS pays cash for our new airplanes, HA is yet to secure financing on the remainging A330/A350's....we have much lower debt, "approaching Southwest levels" as one analyst put it. But to me that means that management at HA is on the same page as the pilots...this growth HAS to work. Because AS owns 30 airplanes outright and doesn't owe as much money...it's a no brainer for management to park them in the desert or sell them to Asia the minute things go south. All of this financial soundness/security has been great for the stockholders, but has not benefited the pilots one bit. We had 10% of our pilots on the street during a time that Alaska Airlines was THE MOST PROFITABLE it has ever been.



If I was hired this past December at HA, I would be at the same relative seniority that I am at Alaska now at over 5 years. If I were to get in one of these first few classes of this next push, I would be slightly better off in relative seniority at HA then I would be at AS in 2 years under managements current plans.

BUT...on the flip side...I hate interviewing, I don't want to go through another probation period, I'm just getting used to the idea of 21 days of vacation a year...not to mention the 100K+ financial loss over the first couple of years...although I do have a plan to mitigate that...what if the music stops before the two years is up.

BUT if similar management stays in place over the next 30 years, I see this continued strategy of anemic growth in airframes in good times with flat or even shrinking numbers of airframes...all while hitting managements target of 6% growth of ASM's. I think we will see another option exercise here in the next few months and I think it will be 900ER's and I think it will be to replace our remaining 700's and 400's. A 900ER has about FIFTY more seats than a 700. Can you say 5 more years of stagnation.

BUT the turtle beat the hare!

Ahhhh!!!!!!!!

I've got 9.5 years in and missed upgrade by just over 100 numbers on the last bid. This is assuming I'd be willing to sit reserve in ANC which hell would freeze over before I did that. I was planning on holding out until I could hold open flying in PDX or LAX so I'm guessing I'm about 4-5 years out still. Of course all of this can change as I sit here. The one thing I do know is Age 65 F'd all of us over. Make the move that you think will make you most happy. Trying to dissect all the minutiae in the financial details is completely pointless. It will all change. Period.

We've hit some really rough patches with the Eskimo over the last several years...Kasher nearly sunk this place, but over all, I'm blessed to be here. I believe we're on the right track and I absolutely believe that we now have the best CEO and exec.team we could have. I'd say we have a better shot at a bright, sustainable, viable future than most other pilot groups on the planet...for now. If you find that crystal ball on Ebay let me know.

 

[Stinkbug]

HA window closed?

Hawaiian Airlines' jobs page no longer showing an open position for flight crew. Just checked and thought I'd pass it along.

 

[Junkflyer]

The window closed on the 10th. Small class begins on the 25th, not sure how or when they were selected.

 

[igneousy2]

For anyone expecting an Alaska base in Hawaii, remember that a somewhat small percentage of your flights go to HNL. More go to OGG, KOA, and LIH. If your pilots were based in HNL, how will they get to those flights? AK management going to pay for that many commuter seats every day to/from the outer islands on HA? Wouldn't that be more expensive than hotel rooms? Or would the union give in on 'satellite bases' and make the pilots find their own way to the outer islands to start a trip? What would happen then if the flights (and jumpseats) were full?

Jus' wondering...

HAL

First off...our pilot group would never tolerate a co-base as you are describing...jumpseating to an assignment on an outer-island is a clear violation of our Jumpseat agreement with HA. This is not Mesa.

As far as a Hawaii base...there has been extensive talk of a reserve base in HNL or OGG as a CX costs over 30K or so management says. Also...AS hates to be late and a short sick call means a minimum of a 8-10 hours to get a reserve to Hawaii.

We are having a difficult time finding enough hotel rooms on Maui at a reasonable price as we are looking at our 3rd hotel there already.

HNL makes more sense from a reserve standpoint but a OGG base solves the hotel problem. If we do a Hawaii base it will be more to have the reserves in the islands.

 

[turbodriver]

As far as a Hawaii base...there has been extensive talk of a reserve base in HNL or OGG as a CX costs over 30K or so management says.

Whats your source?

 

[igneousy2]

Whats your source?

COO...I heard it about a year ago and it was repeated recently at a flight ops dog and pony show. Not to say that they are GOING to do one, but that they have been studying it as a reserve base and if they did it it would be more for the reserves than anything else. Also said as more flights were added it probably makes more and more sense. Take it for what it's worth, I heard they were studying a PDX base for 20 years (...note sarcasim) before it actually happened.

 

[Dan Roman]

Food for thought. If living in Hawaii is what is at stake and you are factoring in AK maybe having a Hi base.....Hawaiian you know you will always have that option. Every mainland airline that has ever had a crew base in Hawaii eventually closed it. Also, you would be limited to what ever you could hold at the small base and not be able to pursue the more options available at other domiciles. Unless you wanted to commute.
On one hand, at AK you could commute easily enough and bid trips to Hawaii, you're home getting per diem on work days, which isn't bad. We have quite a few pilots that commute to the NW and bid PDX layovers to be home. But on the other hand commuting is still a bummer.
I will say this, although I would be careful about giving up a number with AK to start over at any airline, all the airlines left will survive. The music has stopped with airline liquidations due to overcapacity and we (the handful of airlines left) are the ones left with a chair. Mergers are still possible but I really think HA and AK have a strong enough niche that we will both dodge that bullet. The reason AK's stock is doing so well is not because it's a potential takeover target, it's doing well because it has a strong niche as Alaska Airlines and is well managed.
I will say this, If you really want to live in Hawaii, any number with Hawaiian is a good one. Personally, I would rather be an F/O with Hawaiian than number one at any other airline, personal choice, but I am a lifestyle over money person.
Anyway, more food for thought to confuse you!

 

[Full of LUV]

Food for thought. If living in Hawaii is what is at stake and you are factoring in AK maybe having a Hi base.....Hawaiian you know you will always have that option. Every mainland airline that has ever had a crew base in Hawaii eventually closed it. Also, you would be limited to what ever you could hold at the small base and not be able to pursue the more options available at other domiciles. Unless you wanted to commute.
On one hand, at AK you could commute easily enough and bid trips to Hawaii, you're home getting per diem on work days, which isn't bad. We have quite a few pilots that commute to the NW and bid PDX layovers to be home. But on the other hand commuting is still a bummer.
I will say this, although I would be careful about giving up a number with AK to start over at any airline, all the airlines left will survive. The music has stopped with airline liquidations due to overcapacity and we (the handful of airlines left) are the ones left with a chair. Mergers are still possible but I really think HA and AK have a strong enough niche that we will both dodge that bullet. The reason AK's stock is doing so well is not because it's a potential takeover target, it's doing well because it has a strong niche as Alaska Airlines and is well managed.
I will say this, If you really want to live in Hawaii, any number with Hawaiian is a good one. Personally, I would rather be an F/O with Hawaiian than number one at any other airline, personal choice, but I am a lifestyle over money person.
Anyway, more food for thought to confuse you!

Now that is a strong testament! F/O at HAL vs #1 at any other airline!

Your right though if you have to live in Hawaii, there is no other option. The reason many had a Hawaii base and closed it (besides the expense) is because technology and equipment have made it obsolete.
My dad was a controller in HNL during the late 60's and 70's, and for awhile, HNL was among the busiest 24 hour airports in the world. Until the whale became the norm in the pacific, everyone had to stop in Hawaii on the way to the far east.

Bottom line in my opinion is the pain that will be felt going to Hawaii on a Guppy vs a widebody, which is quickly becoming the standard and will only be exasperated by the addition of SWA to Hawaii someday, will probably make commuting to/from the islands almost unbearable. Thank GOD HAL has maintained or appears to plan to maintain widebody service to the islands.
LUV