SWAPA Comments about 717

[SWA Bubba]

....

Less than stellar communiques'. I understand that he is wanting to celebrate a "win" for your pilot group, but coming at the expense of another group that you will eventually have to work with, it could have been tamed down a bit for future relations between our groups.

...

I certainly agree 100% with that! I don't think you'll find many Southwest guys who don't think SWAPA's communication skills have pretty much sucked lately.

Bubba

 

[scoreboardII]

You're still closer to upgrade than you were before, had you not merged. You had an overall relative seniority gain of 14.23% based on your specific overall relative seniority.

Scoreboard you are a class act: I like how you tell us how it isn't so bad losing over 80% of our captain slots. And how now - you are screwed because a few AAI pilots will be able to upgrade in 2015. UFB.

Thank you but no, that number is incorrect.

 

[Dan Roman]

You know, I was gonna' ask you how exactly you thought Capt Chase SHOULD have phrased this, when communicating management's decision to his constituents, but I changed my mind. I think we've had enough of your "helpful" commentary on this subject. Thanks for all of that, by the way. You're a peach.

Bubba

As you admit elsewhere, Chase's wording was weak to say the least as is the perspective that anyone taking someone else's seat can be a good thing. That's my whole point.

As far as being anti-SWA because I throw a few stones? If you read my posts on SWA they are from the bigger airline absorbing a smaller airline perspective. I am anti merger abuse, not anti SWA. You don't see me on the Houston Hobby threads, etc. I think you know who I work for so you can understand why. If DAL bought SWA I would be on here defending the SWA pilots if DAL tried to do to you what SWA did to AirTran.

(although, some of you still need to keep that warrior spirit in check when you taxi!)

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Consider the fact that SWA never wanted the 717. And yes, although i can't prove that to be the case, it is obvious. SWA bought AirTran for 1/3 of their airplanes, Atlanta, a few slots in LGA and National, and a minuscule presence outside the border. SWA never had to integrate the seniority list. Every AirTran pilot could have been sent to the street.

SWA pilots have been hurt in this deal a large amount. Many will never see he left seat. Many will get displaced out of their base. All will suffer the animosity in the cockpit going forward. Many here will be paid less than the guy behind him due to AirTran keeping longevity as they come to the SWA payscale. On the plus side - some SWA FOs will get to the captain seat sooner - where they will sit reserve for ever as AirTran guys come in and fill new vacancies above them.

I could go on and on about how you guys are lucky to not be on the street. I could piss and moan about how unfair it is that original SWA guys paid for a type and spent YEARS more on average getting to SWA than you did getting to AirTran. I could write pages about all that because I am truly infuriated at the attitude coming from many of you guys.

In the end, as I meet former AirTran pilots coming over to the SWA side, I'm being cordial and welcoming. So far they have been similarly polite and friendly. I hope it stays that way because if you want to complain about how bad you have it, I promise you won't get any sympathy from the guy who will end up pulling gear for you for the remainder of his career. You might have gotten bumped to the right seat for a few years, but you will bid cush schedules and get all the cush vacations until you get back to the left seat (where you will be spared sitting in reserve hell due to the original SWA guy who will be forced to do that for you.)

Over 80% of our collective pilots voted for this SLI to go this way. Both groups feel like we were pressured into it (minus the senior SWA FOs benefitting from it). Most of us are feeling like we bought the junk behind door number three and the other guy got the brand new car. So as other have suggested, why don't we try to move ahead because anything else we do will be unproductive and will ultimately be bad for us all.

 

[Dan Roman]

Consider the fact that SWA never wanted the 717. And yes, although i can't prove that to be the case, it is obvious. SWA bought AirTran for 1/3 of their airplanes, Atlanta, a few slots in LGA and National, and a minuscule presence outside the border. SWA never had to integrate the seniority list. Every AirTran pilot could have been sent to the street.

SWA pilots have been hurt in this deal a large amount. Many will never see he left seat. Many will get displaced out of their base. All will suffer the animosity in the cockpit going forward. Many here will be paid less than the guy behind him due to AirTran keeping longevity as they come to the SWA payscale. On the plus side - some SWA FOs will get to the captain seat sooner - where they will sit reserve for ever as AirTran guys come in and fill new vacancies above them.

I could go on and on about how you guys are lucky to not be on the street. I could piss and moan about how unfair it is that original SWA guys paid for a type and spent YEARS more on average getting to SWA than you did getting to AirTran. I could write pages about all that because I am truly infuriated at the attitude coming from many of you guys.

In the end, as I meet former AirTran pilots coming over to the SWA side, I'm being cordial and welcoming. So far they have been similarly polite and friendly. I hope it stays that way because if you want to complain about how bad you have it, I promise you won't get any sympathy from the guy who will end up pulling gear for you for the remainder of his career. You might have gotten bumped to the right seat for a few years, but you will bid cush schedules and get all the cush vacations until you get back to the left seat (where you will be spared sitting in reserve hell due to the original SWA guy who will be forced to do that for you.)

Over 80% of our collective pilots voted for this SLI to go this way. Both groups feel like we were pressured into it (minus the senior SWA FOs benefitting from it). Most of us are feeling like we bought the junk behind door number three and the other guy got the brand new car. So as other have suggested, why don't we try to move ahead because anything else we do will be unproductive and will ultimately be bad for us all.

Well if there are many with your attitude, get use to a career of infighting and anger........."you guys are lucky not to be on the street"..... Really? REALLY?

 

[Full of LUV]

So why did SWA buy AT ? What assets did they get ?

Instant access to ATL, international flights, more 737's, the ability to charge bag fees without claiming that SWA charges "bag fees".

 

[4day]

Consider the fact that SWA never wanted the 717. And yes, although i can't prove that to be the case, it is obvious. SWA bought AirTran for 1/3 of their airplanes, Atlanta, a few slots in LGA and National, and a minuscule presence outside the border. SWA never had to integrate the seniority list. Every AirTran pilot could have been sent to the street.

SWA pilots have been hurt in this deal a large amount. Many will never see he left seat. Many will get displaced out of their base. All will suffer the animosity in the cockpit going forward. Many here will be paid less than the guy behind him due to AirTran keeping longevity as they come to the SWA payscale. On the plus side - some SWA FOs will get to the captain seat sooner - where they will sit reserve for ever as AirTran guys come in and fill new vacancies above them.

I could go on and on about how you guys are lucky to not be on the street. I could piss and moan about how unfair it is that original SWA guys paid for a type and spent YEARS more on average getting to SWA than you did getting to AirTran. I could write pages about all that because I am truly infuriated at the attitude coming from many of you guys.

In the end, as I meet former AirTran pilots coming over to the SWA side, I'm being cordial and welcoming. So far they have been similarly polite and friendly. I hope it stays that way because if you want to complain about how bad you have it, I promise you won't get any sympathy from the guy who will end up pulling gear for you for the remainder of his career. You might have gotten bumped to the right seat for a few years, but you will bid cush schedules and get all the cush vacations until you get back to the left seat (where you will be spared sitting in reserve hell due to the original SWA guy who will be forced to do that for you.)

Over 80% of our collective pilots voted for this SLI to go this way. Both groups feel like we were pressured into it (minus the senior SWA FOs benefitting from it). Most of us are feeling like we bought the junk behind door number three and the other guy got the brand new car. So as other have suggested, why don't we try to move ahead because anything else we do will be unproductive and will ultimately be bad for us all.

Don't know what to say about this crap...

 

[SWA Bubba]

As you admit elsewhere, Chase's wording was weak to say the least as is the perspective that anyone taking someone else's seat can be a good thing. That's my whole point.

As far as being anti-SWA because I throw a few stones? If you read my posts on SWA they are from the bigger airline absorbing a smaller airline perspective. I am anti merger abuse, not anti SWA. You don't see me on the Houston Hobby threads, etc. I think you know who I work for so you can understand why. If DAL bought SWA I would be on here defending the SWA pilots if DAL tried to do to you what SWA did to AirTran.

(although, some of you still need to keep that warrior spirit in check when you taxi!)

Didn't say you were "anti-SWA." I believe I said "anti-SWAPA," or "anti-SWA pilot." You seem to tie SWA management decisions with the pilots who are mostly just along for the ride, and you sling mud on THEM, as if they were the ones who created all this mess. Hell, in the end, it was even management who created the SLI agreement! But I suppose that in your eyes, SWA pilots are azzholes because you see it benefiting them more. I have news for you, Dan--a sizeable portion of our pilots don't see it that way, and still wish this acquisition had never happened. This is all about perception. How the employees of the smaller company see it vs. how the employees of the bigger company see it. And since you work for a smaller airline, it's easy to predict where your perspective will fall for any given situation. However, in this case, your invective is not welcome or helpful for those of us dealing with the fallout of decisions that are out of our hands.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Bubba

 

[humveedriver]

Consider the fact that SWA never wanted the 717. And yes, although i can't prove that to be the case, it is obvious. SWA bought AirTran for 1/3 of their airplanes, Atlanta, a few slots in LGA and National, and a minuscule presence outside the border. SWA never had to integrate the seniority list. Every AirTran pilot could have been sent to the street.

SWA pilots have been hurt in this deal a large amount. Many will never see he left seat. Many will get displaced out of their base. All will suffer the animosity in the cockpit going forward. Many here will be paid less than the guy behind him due to AirTran keeping longevity as they come to the SWA payscale. On the plus side - some SWA FOs will get to the captain seat sooner - where they will sit reserve for ever as AirTran guys come in and fill new vacancies above them.

I could go on and on about how you guys are lucky to not be on the street. I could piss and moan about how unfair it is that original SWA guys paid for a type and spent YEARS more on average getting to SWA than you did getting to AirTran. I could write pages about all that because I am truly infuriated at the attitude coming from many of you guys.

In the end, as I meet former AirTran pilots coming over to the SWA side, I'm being cordial and welcoming. So far they have been similarly polite and friendly. I hope it stays that way because if you want to complain about how bad you have it, I promise you won't get any sympathy from the guy who will end up pulling gear for you for the remainder of his career. You might have gotten bumped to the right seat for a few years, but you will bid cush schedules and get all the cush vacations until you get back to the left seat (where you will be spared sitting in reserve hell due to the original SWA guy who will be forced to do that for you.)

Over 80% of our collective pilots voted for this SLI to go this way. Both groups feel like we were pressured into it (minus the senior SWA FOs benefitting from it). Most of us are feeling like we bought the junk behind door number three and the other guy got the brand new car. So as other have suggested, why don't we try to move ahead because anything else we do will be unproductive and will ultimately be bad for us all.

You guys invested your time, money and ambition to get on with SWA. In return you got 1700 pilots who did none of that integrated in with you. Would I be pissed if I were you? Hell yeah! As far as being on the street goes. GK testified before congress (with BF) that wouldn't happen. It was part of the
getting DOJ approval to begin with. I appreciate your post. The more you hear our story and the more we hear yours, the quicker we will get this behind us.

 

[SWA Bubba]

As you admit elsewhere, Chase's wording was weak to say the least as is the perspective that anyone taking someone else's seat can be a good thing. That's my whole point.

Actually, it's his job to put this message out to his constituents, especially the ones who aren't happy about the acquisition in the first place. He's telling them that there's a little bit of good news for them.

What could have been done better, is the wording or the handling of the message. Like maybe keep it private. Although, these days, nothing stays private for long, because someone always posts it on FI to attach their particular spin to it. Then people like you jump on the bandwagon to whip people into a frenzy. It's like some people just look for a reason to be pissed off at someone else. It's not helpful.

Bubba

 

[texman]

Yes, that's exactly what I said... we didn't "know" and were actually being told by Southwest management that there were no plans to get rid of them earlier than previously-planned.

But the writing (for those of us with a little forward thinking) was on the wall. I took a lot of heat from a couple reps saying I was seeing "black helicopter" conspiracies and we shouldn't waste our time... that's how convinced we were of what Southwest had told us about the 717's being here at least through the integration.

Hell, one of the MC members even made a $100 bet with me just 3 weeks ago that the majority of the 717's would make the transition... he hasn't emailed me back about paying up yet.

I pushed anyway, and they started planning.

If that's what Chase is saying, that's fine, but it was worded poorly when combined with the rest of the letter and didn't come across that way. At least not on the AirTran side... Perception filters our reality I guess.

GK said the 717 was not fuel efficient for todays price. This is the big picture, plain and simple. This is why the are going faster. We can biatch all we want but this is about job security/45,000 employees keeping their job, not the left seat and what the pilots want.

DOES ANYBODY NOT AGREE?

 

[SWA Bubba]

You guys invested your time, money and ambition to get on with SWA. In return you got 1700 pilots who did none of that integrated in with you. Would I be pissed if I were you? Hell yeah! As far as being on the street goes. GK testified before congress (with BF) that wouldn't happen. It was part of the
getting DOJ approval to begin with. I appreciate your post. The more you hear our story and the more we hear yours, the quicker we will get this behind us.

Hey Humvee...

Thanks for the thoughts. There's lots of Southwest guys who can't or won't see this from Airtran's perspective. There's also lots of Airtran guys who can't or won't see this from Southwest's perspective. Thanks for acknowledging that Southwest guys (especially junior ones) see things a little differently than you. There's parts of this that suck for all of us, and parts of it that are good for all of us. As you say, the quicker we get this behind us, the better.

Bubba

 

[scoreboardII]

Agreed.

But the more troubling reality is whats happened on this forum, we have just torn SWA, SWAPA and the pilots into three entities, which has never been done before. This fiasco from SWA will irreparably harm employee worker relations from here on out, the trust has died.

 

[texman]

Agreed.

But the more troubling reality is whats happened on this forum, we have just torn SWA, SWAPA and the pilots into three entities, which has never been done before. This fiasco from SWA will irreparably harm employee worker relations from here on out, the trust has died.

So let's all join together to make this a threesome.

 

[Britpilot]

I could go on and on about how you guys are lucky to not be on the street.

Really? GFY

 

[Dan Roman]

, in this case, your invective is not welcome or helpful for those of us dealing with the fallout of decisions that are out of our hands.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Bubba

Hate to break the news to you, but this is a open forum for ALL pilot's from all airlines. That's what a public forum is all about. I find different perspectives from different airlines entertaining and sometime educational.
If you want to keep this an internal matter use an internal forum.
You can't really think you should be able to get on here and not be exposed to different points of views or that others are not entitled to them do you?

 

[Dan Roman]

Don't know what to say about this crap...

Kermits got that "Warrior Spirit"! thing going for him!

 

[redflyer65]

Hate to break the news to you, but this is a open forum for ALL pilot's from all airlines. That's what a public forum is all about. I find different perspectives from different airlines entertaining and sometime educational.
If you want to keep this an internal matter use an internal forum.
You can't really think you should be able to get on here and not be exposed to different points of views or that others are not entitled to them do you?

Wow. This is just about word for word how the General talks. Nice.

Your in good company Dan!

 

[Kharma Police]

Southwest and SWAPA have taken a benign a cyst and turned it into a stage 4 tumor. Assuming you survive the chemo, your airline won't be the same. I'm truly sorry.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Really? GFY

I'm not saying I want you there. It is the reality. We were told the company would run you separately (with lower wages of course) for as long as they could get away with it; SWAPA contract be damned. Then whatever happened to you, you would not have been part of the SWAPA master seniority list. The threat to us was that for the foreseeable future, you would have gotten the growth until the ensuing court battle stopped it.

I don't know what would have been tried, gotten away with, etc. all I know is our side was threatened as much as yours. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but you act like no one is getting hurt on our side. Well, I got news for ya... It's hurting me. And will continue to do so. Just like I know you feel like you're getting hosed as well. A lot of you will find that when you're on this side of the fence, life will be much better for you. That's unless we all tear this place apart. Not a good option IMO.

By the way, I might as well GFM, everyone else is. Stay classy.