A-320 ETOPs ? VA yesterday

[MTV]

" We also plan to do CUN with a more efficient routing."


How would any route to Cancun from the U.S. require ETOPS?

 

[wmuflyguy]

New delivery??? Over the pacific?? Thought A320's were make in France? Also the crew was chatting on 123.45 with a UsAir crew. They said they were flying to test the route out? see if it could do it?? Could have been BS but VA guy was asking the Cactus guy about somebody he knew was trying to get on the airways flight.

Airbus has an A320 final assembly plant in Tianjin, China. Opened in 2009 I believe.

 

[wscrj]

" We also plan to do CUN with a more efficient routing."


How would any route to Cancun from the U.S. require ETOPS?

One from HI.....

 

[Ralph Cramden]

" We also plan to do CUN with a more efficient routing."


How would any route to Cancun from the U.S. require ETOPS?

Read the next sentence after the one you quoted. There is such a thing as doing something in excess of the requirements in order to further a goal.

 

[MTV]

The reason I ask is the fact that ETOPS does not help with a more efficient routing to CUN from any U.S. city pairs.

Hawaii notwithstanding.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

The reason I ask is the fact that ETOPS does not help with a more efficient routing to CUN from any U.S. city pairs.

Hawaii notwithstanding.

Yes, the routing is the same as the usual extended overwater route vs the 162 nm rule route. The ETOPS MX & MEL compliance experience is the difference and necessary to get the A320 from 120 minute to 180 minute ETOPS.

Since we do not presently have EOW in our ops specs, just the 162 MN exemption it will save us time on route.

And I don't think the A320 has the legs to do HNL CUN nonstop, but I wouldn't mind such a pairing in something bigger some day!

 

[Old School 737]

Airbus has an A320 final assembly plant in Tianjin, China. Opened in 2009 I believe.

China to SFO? I think you would have to fly up and over though Alaska for that.. ??

 

[CesnaCaptn]

China to SFO? I think you would have to fly up and over though Alaska for that.. ??

Great circle route cuts right over top of Cold Bay, AK.

 

[MTV]

China to SFO? I think you would have to fly up and over though Alaska for that.. ??

The China to SFO route can be done through Japan to Guam and or Fuel stops in the Marshall Islands to Hawaii or S. Korea through Wake Island to Hawaii.

Lots of places to stop for fuel from Asia to Hawaii as long as you can make Hawaii to the west coast for a Pacific crossing.

 

[Squirrel29]

Yes, the routing is the same as the usual extended overwater route vs the 162 nm rule route. The ETOPS MX & MEL compliance experience is the difference and necessary to get the A320 from 120 minute to 180 minute ETOPS.

Since we do not presently have EOW in our ops specs, just the 162 MN exemption it will save us time on route.

And I don't think the A320 has the legs to do HNL CUN nonstop, but I wouldn't mind such a pairing in something bigger some day!

So the aircraft dont have dual HF? The Gulf does have a portion where you do enter class II airspace. You either need dual HF or you can apply for a exemption to operate without it.

 

[dicko]

So the aircraft dont have dual HF? The Gulf does have a portion where you do enter class II airspace. You either need dual HF or you can apply for a exemption to operate without it.

Dual HF, or HF and Satcom ? If class II Nav requires dual HF then somebodies in trouble ........

 

[get2flyin]

The reason I ask is the fact that ETOPS does not help with a more efficient routing to CUN from any U.S. city pairs.

Hawaii notwithstanding.

I'm not sure I'd bet the farm on that. Without ETOPS, what's the limit, 162 Miles off shore? That means no cutting across the gulf. From the tip of the Mexican Peninsula to the nearest point in the US (excluding staying 162 miles off the Florida and Cuban coast) it's >520 miles to Southern Louisiana. A more realistic routing from SFO is about 2300 miles of which a >650 mile segment from Southern TX is over the Gulf.

EDIT: PHX to PANC is > 2500 miles and the AWA (ahem, USAir) Airbuses can do that so I'm not sure leg length is the issue.

I'm just a rookie Airbus guy, though. I don't fly that big boy, experienced pilot ETOPS stuff and maybe I'm figuring it wrong.

 

[SKC]

The 162nm rule for ops without rafts. With rafts (non ETOPS), you're limited to the one hour from an alternate or ~300nm.

 

[uhdt]

SKC is correct....Op Spec A013 allows operations up 162NM off a coast- "Conduct extended overwater turbojet operations without the required emergency equipment" (life rafts). The AR routes on the east coast are all within 162NM for example. ETOPS allows operation greater the 60 minutes from an adequate airport (for a 2 engine aircraft), has nothing to do with flying over the Gulf.... a B757-200 60 minute range (1 engine out, still air) is about 435NM

 

[tzskipper]

SKC is correct....Op Spec A013 allows operations up 162NM off a coast- "Conduct extended overwater turbojet operations without the required emergency equipment" (life rafts). The AR routes on the east coast are all within 162NM for example. ETOPS allows operation greater the 60 minutes from an adequate airport (for a 2 engine aircraft), has nothing to do with flying over the Gulf.... a B757-200 60 minute range (1 engine out, still air) is about 435NM

This is the crux of the issue as I read it. As of now, VA is limited to the 162nm limitation on the SFO/LAX - CUN flights requiring an excessive routing near land when crossing the east coast of mainland Mexico over the gulf to CUN. In order to exceed the 162nm limitation (out to an approximate 300nm limit) VA needs to install life rafts. VA's plan seems to be to proceed with ETOPS certification, which will both satisfy the CUN "shortcut" and eventually allow for west coast/Hawaii service.

S

 

[Headfake14]

The 162nm rule for ops without rafts. With rafts (non ETOPS), you're limited to the one hour from an alternate or ~300nm.

A320 is just over 400nm off shore.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

This is the crux of the issue as I read it. As of now, VA is limited to the 162nm limitation on the SFO/LAX - CUN flights requiring an excessive routing near land when crossing the east coast of mainland Mexico over the gulf to CUN. In order to exceed the 162nm limitation (out to an approximate 300nm limit) VA needs to install life rafts. VA's plan seems to be to proceed with ETOPS certification, which will both satisfy the CUN "shortcut" and eventually allow for west coast/Hawaii service.

S

Bingo! You got it.

We will need ETOPS "experience" to push the new sharklet & NEO busses from 120 minute to 180 minute ETOPS. Mexico routings will be one of the ways to get it. The other is conducting the delivery flights under ETOPS, even though we could do them FAR 91.

Our current 162 mile authorization is only for the Gulf Of Mexico, we currently have to comply with 50 NM on the PVR routings.

 

[SKC]

A320 is just over 400nm off shore.

Oops, yep, I was incorrect on that number. It's been four years since I've planned any ETOPs flts so I was a tad low.

 

[bizicmo]

SFO-CUN isn't ETOPS. And delivery flights are Part 91, no ETOPS required.

I guess it depends on the route you take to CUN

 

[MTV]

Bingo! You got it.

We will need ETOPS "experience" to push the new sharklet & NEO busses from 120 minute to 180 minute ETOPS. Mexico routings will be one of the ways to get it. The other is conducting the delivery flights under ETOPS, even though we could do them FAR 91.


You can be certified 180 minute ETOPS initally without first holding 120 Minute certification.

MTV