Netjets - Say Hello To Your First Global

[johnsonrod]

I suspect the Gulfstream pilots at Netjets won't be so thrilled to hear this (or maybe the pilots flying the older GIVSPs will?). You tell me. Personally, I would have rather seen you guys buy the G650 at the higher end but I am sure Bombardier offered Sokol a GREAT price for the Globals. I'd be curious to hear what the Gulfstream-loving passengers/owners think about the upcoming Globals - do they care or not care?

Will the older GIVSPs go first and be swapped out one-for-one? Anyone know (or guess) how the fleets will be switched? Will Netjets Europe also replace their current G550s with Globals from this order?


See the news from AINOnline below:



Bombardier Aerospace and NetJets celebrated the rollout of the fractional provider’s first Global-series jet today, in this case a Global 6000 (neé XRS). Last March, NetJets placed an order for 50 Globals worth $2.8 billion, as well as options for an additional 70, breaking the fractional provider’s tradition of buying only Gulfstreams for its large-cabin jet fleets. Executives from NetJets and Bombardier, as well as 1,000 Bombardier employees, were on hand for this morning’s ceremony at the Canadian aircraft manufacturer’s plant in Toronto. After the event, the green aircraft was ferried to Bombardier’s Global completion center in Dorval, Quebec, for outfitting. NetJets’ Global 6000s, to be configured for up to 13 passengers, will feature an aft-cabin state room and full-service galley. Donald Strench, vice president of fleet planning and acquisitions at NetJets, said the Global series “is ideally suited to our owners’ needs for safety, extended range, superior reliability, cabin comfort and operating efficiency.” NetJets’ firm order includes 30 ultra-long-range Global 5000s and 6000s, with deliveries scheduled to begin in the fourth quarter. It also includes firm orders for 20 extended-range Global 7000s and 8000s, for delivery starting in 2017.

 

[Club ORD FO]

So how does this work. An owner in an old depreciated G5 is going to be asked to renew into a brand new expensive Global? Are that many going to want to throw down that kind of cash? I guess I'm wondering what you guys are going to do with all those big planes, since our people are telling us that there is no market for new owners.

 

[SCT]

How many Gs does NetJets own?

Also, 2.8 billion for 50 planes works out to be 56 million a piece for the Globals???

 

[jonjuan]

So how does this work. An owner in an old depreciated G5 is going to be asked to renew into a brand new expensive Global? Are that many going to want to throw down that kind of cash? I guess I'm wondering what you guys are going to do with all those big planes, since our people are telling us that there is no market for new owners.

winner, winner, meatloaf with sweet potato dinner....only the biggest of suckers will pony up multi-millions for an aircraft share they will most likely rarely see.

 

[jonjuan]

How many Gs does NetJets own?

Also, 2.8 billion for 50 planes works out to be 56 million a piece for the Globals???

Quoting list prices is simply a marketing ploy. Kinda like using safety as a way to lure in prospects.

 

[cldsfr79]

winner, winner, meatloaf with sweet potato dinner....only the biggest of suckers will pony up multi-millions for an aircraft share they will most likely rarely see.

I agree. But then again, someone will buy a high end Mercedes and drive it off the lot brand new, and then a few years later, sell it and buy another new one.

NJA also has a lease program. Just like a car, at the end of a lease you can turn around and sign a new one with a brand spanking new plane. NJA would make more money leasing the plane over and over rather than selling out right shares.

I always thought NJA should also have charter service and then have three tiers of service (ownership, card holders, and charter) and use its core fleet for this. We would be the largest charter company on Earth. Oh wait, what am I thinking, they have EJM and it's eating NJ alive! Funny how NJ pilots are being threatened with more furloughs and EJM is hiring. Hmmm......

 

[jonjuan]

I agree. But then again, someone will buy a high end Mercedes and drive it off the lot brand new, and then a few years later, sell it and buy another new one.

Now imagine that same high-end new Mercedes buyer was now driving a 5 year old car every day. How do you think they would feel?

 

[NJAowner]

Now imagine that same high-end new Mercedes buyer was now driving a 5 year old car every day. How do you think they would feel?

If this was you at NJ, a 5 year old GIV/450 would be "new". Isn't most of the fleet much older?

 

[BentOver]

Hopefully the fact will still remain that NJA is going to be taking delivery of its first new airframe in nearly 3-4 years. (Once the keys are firmly in hand)

And even though many in the Union, (one attempted recalled Pres.) thinks that the order is not going to happen. NJA is putting up quite a show for a/c they aren't going to take delivery of.


I've always enjoyed the Bombardier products. Never flew a GIV/V but know they are nice. Hopefully they sell well and more deliveries will commence, starting a long overdue turnaround.... Ok that's stretching it a bit.

 

[jonjuan]

If this was you at NJ, a 5 year old GIV/450 would be "new". Isn't most of the fleet much older?

Then just buy a 5 year old GIV/450-much cheaper.

 

[NJAowner]

JJ - I agree with you.

 

[Outta Here]

I guess many here don't understand. The name of the game here is depreciation. That is on of the MAIN reasons for fractionals. That is something we don't have right now you can't depreciate a used or leased share. They will still be able to sell their old depreciated one at market value and get into the new ride and trust me they always want a new ride

 

[gret]

I guess many here don't understand. The name of the game here is depreciation. That is on of the MAIN reasons for fractionals. That is something we don't have right now you can't depreciate a used or leased share. They will still be able to sell their old depreciated one at market value and get into the new ride and trust me they always want a new ride

You can depreciate a used or leased share. Section 167 of the Internal Revenue Code provides that if the asset (other than land or intangible assets) is used in a trade or business, it is subject to depreciation for tax purposes. Personal use assets may not be depreciated.

The leased share is depreciated if it is deemed a capital lease. If not, it is an operating lease in which case you write off the lease payments as they are made. In either case, it must be used in a trade or business.

 

[rajflyboy]

Gret is awful smart. You have your facts straight.

 

[BentOver]

There will always be those who just have to have the newest, biggest, fastest, shiniest...........


Just gotta hope there are enough of them on Wall Street to buy into NJA

 

[gunfyter]

JJ - I agree with you.

:nuts: I just threw up a little in my mouth uke:

:laugh:

 

[johnsonrod]

Now for the more "touchy" question: will all of the current Gulfstream drivers automatically jump to the Globals on a one-for-one basis as airplanes arrive? What about the senior legacy NJA pilots - can they bid the new aircraft type per their seniority? As a legacy NJI pilot, do you automatically get a seat on the Global? How does that work? Obviously I don't know the contents of your latest contract - especially NJI integration issues.

Not trying to stir the pot - just curious considering the NJI pilots were separate from the original NJA union... Personally, if I were a senior Citation X pilot, I would want a crack at the new Globals before a junior Gulfstream pilot with fewer years on the line (especially because it is a new aircraft type requiring new training, etc.) - but that's just me.

Thanks for any OBJECTIVE insight if possible.

 

[Jack Campbell]

I've had the same questions as JR since they announced the Global purchase. Will a G-IV captain hired in, let's say, 2004 get a displacement bid into a Global? I say he should not be eligible, but the company is allowed to offer it to him. If NJ is going to maintain a seniority-based system, those guys should be able to bid what their seniority holds. Yet another thing that'll be really interesting to watch at my former (and future?) employer over the next 2 years.

 

[johnsonrod]

If Netjets were keeping the Gulfsteams long term - say the G450/550 and maybe some new G650s, I could understand the rationale for keeping the Gulfstream pilots in place given their type ratings and international flying experience, etc. Given that the Globals are new and require different training (new type), does that argument hold true? I know one Netjets Sovereign pilot who flew C-17s and C-141s worldwide and would have no problem flying Globals internationally.

Is Netjets contractually obligated now (per the contract and integration formula) to reposition current Gulfstream pilots into the Globals as they arrive? How will that work?

 

[BentOver]

I think I remember something about the Globals going to bid just like every other a/c....As far as displacement bids, IF there were to be a displacement out of the Gulfstreams, those pilots can bid whatever is available. Much like what is going to probably occur with pilots in the Beechjet, Hawkers, Ultra's etc... There should be a lot of plane switching in the next couple years.....Plus there are still the Phenoms coming up, and also whatever Mid-Size announcements are made. (My bet is the CL-300 and new Citation TEN)

But as far as I know there is no special bid awards given to Gulfstream pilots for being with the former NJI.

On top of that, many many non-NJI pilots have loads of international experience. Many many furloughed pilots have loads of international experience. The fact that NJI pilots have the traditional monopoly on the "INTERNATIONAL" moniker should make zero difference who gets awarded a Global position.

Many NJA pilots "could have" bid over to the Gulfstreams throughout the years. Many have never done it or wanted to simply for the length of legs etc.... Heck, there are Ultra pilots who could be in the X or Falcon etc, who haven't done it simply on what they want out of their week on.

 

[johnsonrod]

I think I remember something about the Globals going to bid just like every other a/c....As far as displacement bids, IF there were to be a displacement out of the Gulfstreams, those pilots can bid whatever is available. Much like what is going to probably occur with pilots in the Beechjet, Hawkers, Ultra's etc... There should be a lot of plane switching in the next couple years.....Plus there are still the Phenoms coming up, and also whatever Mid-Size announcements are made. (My bet is the CL-300 and new Citation TEN)

But as far as I know there is no special bid awards given to Gulfstream pilots for being with the former NJI.

Thanks for that. So, let's say you are a junior GIVSP FO (legacy NJI pilot who joined before the integration and you were not furloughed). Is there a higher likelihood that you will jump to the Global as an FO or will you be bidding whatever you could hold per your seniority (perhaps the XLS or X)? On the other side of the coin, will a current legacy NJA pilot (say a G200 Captain with good seniority) have a chance of bidding the Global in the next few years?

Just curious because the NJA/NJI integration was never really explained clearly. Now that a new aircraft type is being introduced at the higher end, it would be interesting to understand the integration implications for the combined pilots... Again, not trying to stir the pot!

 

[BentOver]

Thanks for that. So, let's say you are a junior GIVSP FO (legacy NJI pilot who joined before the integration and you were not furloughed). Is there a higher likelihood that you will jump to the Global as an FO or will you be bidding whatever you could hold per your seniority (perhaps the XLS or X)? On the other side of the coin, will a current legacy NJA pilot (say a G200 Captain with good seniority) have a chance of bidding the Global in the next few years?

Just curious because the NJA/NJI integration was never really explained clearly. Now that a new aircraft type is being introduced at the higher end, it would be interesting to understand the integration implications for the combined pilots... Again, not trying to stir the pot!

I guess it would depend on whether or not very many Captains bid for Global FO.. (I guess it does happen?)... With only about 500-600 SIC's out of 2500 pilots anything could be possible with a junior SIC (junior is relative based on 500 furloughees, SIC's being here atleast 5-6 years etc. It's hard to call anyone junior anymore:beer:... IMO fractional flying and bidding is a special type of bidding. A Global with a 12 hr duration time is not real appealing to some vs. being on a slower fleet and spending more down time at hotels etc....with 1-2 hr leg lengths. There is more of a difference between fleets here than say at Delta. (with the exception of long haul international stuff vs. an MD88) With no bases and no set schedule and where seniority really doesn't play a whole lot of role in schedule it comes down to a few key items..

1) Amount of work
2) FA vs non FA
3)Value of the type rating. (trust me, after this furlough I have anew found passion for collecting valuable types)
4) APU vs non-APU
5)Reputation of the pilots in each fleet. (some fleets have a few more dingbats than others according to popular opinion!)

 

[imacdog]

Thanks for that. So, let's say you are a junior GIVSP FO (legacy NJI pilot who joined before the integration and you were not furloughed). Is there a higher likelihood that you will jump to the Global as an FO or will you be bidding whatever you could hold per your seniority (perhaps the XLS or X)? On the other side of the coin, will a current legacy NJA pilot (say a G200 Captain with good seniority) have a chance of bidding the Global in the next few years?

Just curious because the NJA/NJI integration was never really explained clearly. Now that a new aircraft type is being introduced at the higher end, it would be interesting to understand the integration implications for the combined pilots... Again, not trying to stir the pot!

I think it'll all come down to how the bid is released. If it's released as a displacement bid, then whoever is getting displaced from their fleet will have first shot. Otherwise, the Global would be treated as any other non-G fleet and go to the entire seniority list for bid.

 

[G4dude]

I think it'll all come down to how the bid is released. If it's released as a displacement bid, then whoever is getting displaced from their fleet will have first shot. Otherwise, the Global would be treated as any other non-G fleet and go to the entire seniority list for bid.

Imacdog has it exactly right, I think. Also, none of the G guys and gals I have talked with intend to try for the Global. They say they don't want to fly with all those senior A pilots. Having too much fun with our old friends in the Gs. My sentiments match theirs. Go figure.

 

[G4dude]

Imacdog has it exactly right, I think. Also, none of the G guys and gals I have talked with intend to try for the Global. They say they don't want to fly with all those senior A pilots. Having too much fun with our old friends in the Gs. My sentiments match theirs. Go figure.

Finishing my thought, the Global will be available for senior bids unencumbered by competition from non-displaced G pilots, looks like.

 

[johnsonrod]

Imacdog has it exactly right, I think. Also, none of the G guys and gals I have talked with intend to try for the Global. They say they don't want to fly with all those senior A pilots. Having too much fun with our old friends in the Gs. My sentiments match theirs. Go figure.

So, does that assume that the Gs will stick around for awhile as the Globals are phased in? Won't the Globals be replacing the entire Gulfstream fleet? Or will the fleet ultimately include a mix of Gulfstreams and Globals? Sorry, I guess I am a bit confused.... Thanks for any clarification.

 

[BentOver]

So, does that assume that the Gs will stick around for awhile as the Globals are phased in? Won't the Globals be replacing the entire Gulfstream fleet? Or will the fleet ultimately include a mix of Gulfstreams and Globals? Sorry, I guess I am a bit confused.... Thanks for any clarification.

I think that is a million $ question..... Of course we'd like them all to stay! Not sure if anyone other than the EMT knows the master plan.....

I'm certainly not listening to Luthi's take on it if he has one... According to him, every other fractional is kicking NJA's butt, and then this week it becomes apparent they are not.

There's speculation what the fleet will look like.. (no more Beechjets/800's or Ultra's) add Phenom's... Other than that who the hell knows. The X's are getting old, but there are new TEN's to be available later next year.

 

[AftCG182]

...According to him, every other fractional is kicking NJA's butt, and then this week it becomes apparent they are not...QUOTE]

With the exception of Avantair. Reference the February BCA article. We ARE kicking butts...

 

[BentOver]

...According to him, every other fractional is kicking NJA's butt, and then this week it becomes apparent they are not...QUOTE]

With the exception of Avantair. Reference the February BCA article. We ARE kicking butts...

:beer:

I'll give ya that... But I gotta say, it's on a different playing field.....Different segment of the market.....

 

[7on7Off]

With the exception of Avantair. Reference the February BCA article. We ARE kicking butts...

Same article said we were doing well too; we expect an announcement tomorrow night telling us that we're going out of business.