Virgin America Revenue...

[Flyer1015]

So, fubi, it seems you are an Alaska Air pilot. For those of us unfortunate not to be the son of a Captain at Alaska and an uncle who is a checkairmen there, we will go to VA if we get a call. Virgin is still a better option than sticking at a regional airline that is asking for paycuts and concessions, threatening bankruptcy if we do not.

 

[Fubijaakr]

...we will go to VA if we get a call. Virgin is still a better option than sticking at a regional airline that is asking for paycuts and concessions, threatening bankruptcy if we do not.

Then you have no one to blame but YOURSELF if you're making $100K a year as a major airline pilot in 15 years.

Because YOU'RE driving down the "industry average" that management targets.

Pretty shortsighted on your part, if you ask me.

 

[NEDude]

If so, it was because he was a CA when they merged. The CAs got DoH, the rest got stapled. Not so great a deal for them. I see you're banking on a buyout before the moneypit claims the company. Gotd luck with that.



He can't. He's addicted to the Red Kool-Aid...

Hmmm, the People Express pilots who were not captains did not get a great deal. Too bad they didn't have ALPA to help them out, they could have gotten a great deal just like the TWA pilots did...

 

[NEDude]

Then you have no one to blame but YOURSELF if you're making $100K a year as a major airline pilot in 15 years.

Because YOU'RE driving down the "industry average" that management targets.

Pretty shortsighted on your part, if you ask me.

Talk about short sighted - you fail to recognize any of the other factors involved. Of course that would involve rational thought that your third grade brain cannot handle.

ALPA has at best turned a blind eye to the outsourcing of entry level mainline jobs to the regionals - a fact you cannot recognize.

ALPA has at best accepted the poverty level wages paid at the regionals that have put downward pressure on wages - a fact you cannot recognize.

Tell me, why can't your brain wrap itself around the cause and effect of the outsourcing? Do you not see that by giving up scope and accepting of poverty level wages at the regionals it creates an environment that makes it advantageous for management to outsource mainline flying? Have you not been seeing that over the past decade?! Can you not recognize the fact that every time ALPA signs off on the releasing of more scope, it creates less opportunity for pilots to move onto a mainline carrier and forces more pilots to live at poverty level wages? Can you not see that all of this has created a situation where poverty level wage paying ALPA carriers are now playing a part in driving ALPA legacy carriers out of business (refer to the case of Mesa's Hawaii operation and how it affected Aloha airlines)? Can you not see how that puts extreme downward pressure on wages and creates an environment in which regional pilots, pilots at companies that were driven out of business, or pilots that were furloughed because their jobs were outsourced to regionals, are now looking for other work? Is that too much to wrap your brain around?

These things are happening right in front of you and you fail to acknowledge any of them. You are so stuck on an argument that one airline's management used several years ago (an argument that did not even involve Virgin America) to blame all the ills of the industry on Virgin America pilots. It takes of lot of ignorant nerve to accuse me of being short sighted when you fail to see what has been happening right in front of your eyes.

Yes, I know, you are going to come back and call me some variation of 'doosh' and accuse me of drinking more red kool-aid. How original.

 

[Flyer1015]

Then you have no one to blame but YOURSELF if you're making $100K a year as a major airline pilot in 15 years.

Because YOU'RE driving down the "industry average" that management targets.

Pretty shortsighted on your part, if you ask me.

Hey bud, my current *ALPA* carrier is forcing me to vote on a 5% paycut and other concessions which are forthcoming. Of course I will vote no, but it still doesn't change the fact. The only thing ALPA has done effectively at 9E is take 1.95% out of every paycheck. Their track record for that has been spot on, but everything else has been pathetic! And don't be dramatic, VA Captains earn more than $100k. I'v heard they earn even more than the former ALPA-represented US Air pilots.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You hear wrong. On top of that, LCC pilots are represented by USAPA. Don't let your ALPA hate turn you into NEDoosh.

That's his justification for working for VX and screwing everyone in the profession.

 

[mxer]

I hasn't heard wrong. Its accurate.

 

[ualdriver]

Hey bud, my current *ALPA* carrier is forcing me to vote on a 5% paycut and other concessions which are forthcoming. Of course I will vote no, but it still doesn't change the fact. The only thing ALPA has done effectively at 9E is take 1.95% out of every paycheck. Their track record for that has been spot on, but everything else has been pathetic! And don't be dramatic, VA Captains earn more than $100k. I'v heard they earn even more than the former ALPA-represented US Air pilots.

OMG the horror! ALPA is actually making you VOTE on a concession management wants you to take? I can't imagine what could be worse than an organization giving its members the right to vote on an important issue they face!

Further, I guess you could say the only thing ALPA has done effectively is take 1.95% out of your pay. Or one could argue that if you didn't have ALPA on the property, you could have 5% taken out of your paycheck by your airline's management.

 

[Flyer1015]

OMG the horror! ALPA is actually making you VOTE on a concession management wants you to take? I can't imagine what could be worse than an organization giving its members the right to vote on an important issue they face!

Further, I guess you could say the only thing ALPA has done effectively is take 1.95% out of your pay. Or one could argue that if you didn't have ALPA on the property, you could have 5% taken out of your paycheck by your airline's management.

OH come on, like having ALPA on property actually stopped concessions? Every single airline concession post 9/11 has been from a union carrier (mostly ALPA). In every case, they volunteered paycuts in round one to avert bankruptcy. EVERY case! Next, the company declared bankruptcy anyway and filed motion 1113 to void the pilot contract. Then they were forced round #2 of forced paycuts. Make no mistake, the airline will get paycuts and concessions whether you are ALPA or not. Frankly, I think ALPA has become too political an organization, with a goal of representing both majors and regionals which are contradictory to each other.

 

[NEDude]

You hear wrong. On top of that, LCC pilots are represented by USAPA. Don't let your ALPA hate turn you into NEDoosh.

That's his justification for working for VX and screwing everyone in the profession.

No, it is accurate, the VX captain rates are higher than USAirways east. Look it up (of course that would require work so we know it will not happen). On top of that the rates were put in place while they were still ALPA, so ALPA deserves all the credit for the USAirways east pay rates.

I also see you have once again failed to answer my very direct, and brutally honest questions. Do they strain your brain too much?

 

[Lake Alice]

NEdude,

You are very emotional in your arguments. A few points. TWA/AA merger amounted to an 8:1 integration or 52% staple. Allegheny/Mohawk which is referenced in McKaskill/Bond suggests a 50% staple. This 2% difference was also during a Ch.11 filing trending to CH.7. TWA was going to liquidate and they still received a 52% staple. Please tell me what you would have expected.
Regionals.
A 50 seater loses money, period. A Boyd research report of the AA filling states American will retire all Embraer ERJ 135/140/145, and some Bombardier CRJ 700 and ATR-72 by 2016 and begin retiring CRJ's in 2016. They are not cost effective and most routes may be flown with 319's. Unprofitable routes will simply be dropped. ERJ's and CRJ's are economically obsolete. This holds true for all SLP contracts. ALPA has nothing to do with the economics despite the opinion you state.

I understand you are upset about regional pay, I understand you are upset about VX pay and industry views of your benefits package but I must say AGAIN regional pilots are not worth the pay because the aircraft do not produce the revenue.
Also, this is not any unions fault. ALPA is not at fault for this. These are facts. This is not an opinion.

UAL has a stronger grasp on VX financials so I defer commentary.

 

[ualdriver]

OH come on, like having ALPA on property actually stopped concessions? Every single airline concession post 9/11 has been from a union carrier (mostly ALPA). In every case, they volunteered paycuts in round one to avert bankruptcy. EVERY case! Next, the company declared bankruptcy anyway and filed motion 1113 to void the pilot contract. Then they were forced round #2 of forced paycuts. Make no mistake, the airline will get paycuts and concessions whether you are ALPA or not. Frankly, I think ALPA has become too political an organization, with a goal of representing both majors and regionals which are contradictory to each other.

Your post above was making it sound like ALPA was tthe reason you were having to take pay cuts. Right now, ALPA is currently the reason you are NOT taking at least a 5% haircut. Sounds like so far you are getting your 1.95% worth.

Of course the ALPA carriers are the ones that took the big cuts. They were the ones with the best pilot benefits and the ones that were being undercut the most by the likes of JetBlue, Frontier, Southwest, and such.

To your other points, they are made with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. With that benefit, now pilots know that it is pretty pointless to try to "save" your airline by taking pay cuts outside of bankruptcy if you are likely to end up in bankruptcy anyway. I think that is the main reason why the American guys didn't even bother as they knew it was going to happen anyway. The Pinnacle guys should be thinking the same thing.

 

[Busdriver320]

You know, I usually just lurk around here but I've decided to chime in on a few things....


First: I'm glad for all you guys like Fubi, Fish, UAL, and all the other haters that you've had your golden one or two airline career. Maybe you took some paycuts or a downgrade, but you know there's a lot of guys that did all the right things back in 80's-90's and built their instructor -> 135 -> regional time and got on with a legacy. Those hired between mid '99 or so and 9/11 have had their careers and expectations destroyed. Many of us have had multiple jobs or jobs outside flying, or crappy flying jobs just to stay current. We were handed a sh1t sandwich and will never have the chance to get back where we should have been. I've never PFT'd (turned down CoEx back in the 90's...I'd be a capt at CAL now as they had the flowthrough back then), never signed a training bond (turned down ATA and USA3000 for that reason alone), and had a class date at a legacy cancelled once, with the pool dumped and being told to start the whole process over if we wanted to come back "when we do start hiring".
UAL, I'd take my file number there back if I can have it! I'm a 2172'er and there was no 10 year bypass back then. I was given a choice to come back to certain 2nd furlough (it had been announced the Guppy's would be parked) or resign. Nice, huh? I'd still be on the street on the 2nd furlough with the CAL option still above me. Whaddya say, can I have my seniority number back? As has been mentioned before, VX has been a lifeline for many ex-ATA, Aloha, MidEx, TWA, ABEX, and UAL folks.


Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.


Third: There are many here that see the need for pay and retirement to improve, and if there aren't improvements in 2012 I think you'll see an organizing effort. While I have nothing personal against ALPA (all my former carriers were ALPA and I've done ALPA work in the past), you'll never see it at VX. Too many haters and people who feel they've been duped. We'll either get an in-house or go with Teamsters or TWU or someone else. There are people here I'd have never thought would support a union who are now saying they will. And then there are the ones who've been duped by the 1% into thinking they are IN the 1% or have some chance of being in the 1% and just hate unions period.

Yes, our pay and retirement needs to improve. It isn't as bad as some have purported it to be, but it needs to improve. Many of us came here under the impression it would significantly increase after a couple of years of the "startup" process and that time has passed. QOL, however, is pretty good except for reserve, and that is in the process of being improved now.


So go ahead and hate us and continue to call us names. Put up a bona fide legal picket line and I won't cross it, but don't tell me I have to go work at Home Depot for 25% of what my skills can earn. I'm simply living in the globalized world trying to make a living like everyone else, and playing the cards I was dealt.


For those of you like Lake Alice who direct their dislike to our pay or other issues and don't wish us fellow pilots personal failure, I thank you.


Happy New Year!


Standing by for Fubi to come with some snarky derivative of Busdriver....

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, apparently you guys know what you're worth. I just wish you'd stick to RJ flying and NOT fly A320s for RJ wages.

 

[ackattacker]

Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.

Most of what you said is reasonable except for this. Ultimately income is not matching expenditures, the balance sheet is plain as day. The company is losing money overall, and the only way the investors/owners are getting paid is because the company is borrowing more money. Ponzi scheme, shell game, whatever you want to call it, unless the company can turn an actual profit there is only one way that ends.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, apparently you guys know what you're worth. I just wish you'd stick to RJ flying and NOT fly A320s for RJ wages.

Don't get me wrong fubi, if Delta calls, I'll go. If Alaska calls, the same. Ditto to American, UniCal, and all the big boys. However, all of them don't seem to be keen on hiring these days. So if JetBlue or VA call, I'm gone. There is no point sticking it out at an ALPA regional that has screwed our pilot group for over 5 years, and then agreeing to binding arbitration with a group of 3 highly unqualified negotatiors from within our ranks. Add the impending bankruptcy filing and a potential paycuts/concessions, I'd rather take my chances at a place like VA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

We've taken a VA jumpseater at my ALPA carrier. And what deicision? Stay as a 5th year RJ FO with no movement or upgrade in sight, potential shamruptcy and concessions, or move on? That's not really a choice, if you are smart.

 

[ualdriver]

You know, I usually just lurk around here but I've decided to chime in on a few things....


First: I'm glad for all you guys like Fubi, Fish, UAL, and all the other haters that you've had your golden one or two airline career. Maybe you took some paycuts or a downgrade, but you know there's a lot of guys that did all the right things back in 80's-90's and built their instructor -> 135 -> regional time and got on with a legacy. Those hired between mid '99 or so and 9/11 have had their careers and expectations destroyed. Many of us have had multiple jobs or jobs outside flying, or crappy flying jobs just to stay current. We were handed a sh1t sandwich and will never have the chance to get back where we should have been. I've never PFT'd (turned down CoEx back in the 90's...I'd be a capt at CAL now as they had the flowthrough back then), never signed a training bond (turned down ATA and USA3000 for that reason alone), and had a class date at a legacy cancelled once, with the pool dumped and being told to start the whole process over if we wanted to come back "when we do start hiring".
UAL, I'd take my file number there back if I can have it! I'm a 2172'er and there was no 10 year bypass back then. I was given a choice to come back to certain 2nd furlough (it had been announced the Guppy's would be parked) or resign. Nice, huh? I'd still be on the street on the 2nd furlough with the CAL option still above me. Whaddya say, can I have my seniority number back? As has been mentioned before, VX has been a lifeline for many ex-ATA, Aloha, MidEx, TWA, ABEX, and UAL folks.


Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.


Third: There are many here that see the need for pay and retirement to improve, and if there aren't improvements in 2012 I think you'll see an organizing effort. While I have nothing personal against ALPA (all my former carriers were ALPA and I've done ALPA work in the past), you'll never see it at VX. Too many haters and people who feel they've been duped. We'll either get an in-house or go with Teamsters or TWU or someone else. There are people here I'd have never thought would support a union who are now saying they will. And then there are the ones who've been duped by the 1% into thinking they are IN the 1% or have some chance of being in the 1% and just hate unions period.

To your first point, it doesn't matter what the reason is anyone went to VA, and I'm not going to enter a circular argument about the point, but VA wages are a drag on the industry. I don't care what anyone says, and I'm not going to respond any further as this has been hashed out a million times before.

Further, I don't really fault guys for going to VA, for example. It's a free country and you can do what you want. But if you make that decision, at least own up to the effect airlines VA, GoJets, JetBlue, etc., have had on the industry. If I didn't have a "golden" career and I chose to go to VA, I'd just say, yeah, you're right. It doesn drag down the industry but I have no choice. If you don't like the decision, tough luck. The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

To your second point, that's just incorrect. The people/entities who earn the interest are the people who LOANED money to VA, which may or not may be the same people who contributed money or property to START-UP/ORGANIZE VA. Think about it like this: Suppose you and a group of people contribute money to start a corporation. You all put in $10,000 and start a business. A year later, the business needs a delivery truck, so they take out a loan from Bank A to buy the truck. Bank A gets the interest. The corporation gets the debt and pays the interest. The original founders and collecting the interest.

To your third point, I doubt you guys are getting a raise unless there is a mass exodus of pilots and the company has no other choice. They can't even afford to pay you what you're getting paid now. I don't care if you get a union or not, in my opinion if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

 

[Fubijaakr]

The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

..if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

Two brilliant points. However, the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.