Virgin America Revenue...

[Flyer1015]

Well, apparently you guys know what you're worth. I just wish you'd stick to RJ flying and NOT fly A320s for RJ wages.

Don't get me wrong fubi, if Delta calls, I'll go. If Alaska calls, the same. Ditto to American, UniCal, and all the big boys. However, all of them don't seem to be keen on hiring these days. So if JetBlue or VA call, I'm gone. There is no point sticking it out at an ALPA regional that has screwed our pilot group for over 5 years, and then agreeing to binding arbitration with a group of 3 highly unqualified negotatiors from within our ranks. Add the impending bankruptcy filing and a potential paycuts/concessions, I'd rather take my chances at a place like VA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well, you have to make your decision. Don't be surprised if other pilots shun you in your Johnny Cash uniform or you can't get a jumpseat ride.

We've taken a VA jumpseater at my ALPA carrier. And what deicision? Stay as a 5th year RJ FO with no movement or upgrade in sight, potential shamruptcy and concessions, or move on? That's not really a choice, if you are smart.

 

[ualdriver]

You know, I usually just lurk around here but I've decided to chime in on a few things....


First: I'm glad for all you guys like Fubi, Fish, UAL, and all the other haters that you've had your golden one or two airline career. Maybe you took some paycuts or a downgrade, but you know there's a lot of guys that did all the right things back in 80's-90's and built their instructor -> 135 -> regional time and got on with a legacy. Those hired between mid '99 or so and 9/11 have had their careers and expectations destroyed. Many of us have had multiple jobs or jobs outside flying, or crappy flying jobs just to stay current. We were handed a sh1t sandwich and will never have the chance to get back where we should have been. I've never PFT'd (turned down CoEx back in the 90's...I'd be a capt at CAL now as they had the flowthrough back then), never signed a training bond (turned down ATA and USA3000 for that reason alone), and had a class date at a legacy cancelled once, with the pool dumped and being told to start the whole process over if we wanted to come back "when we do start hiring".
UAL, I'd take my file number there back if I can have it! I'm a 2172'er and there was no 10 year bypass back then. I was given a choice to come back to certain 2nd furlough (it had been announced the Guppy's would be parked) or resign. Nice, huh? I'd still be on the street on the 2nd furlough with the CAL option still above me. Whaddya say, can I have my seniority number back? As has been mentioned before, VX has been a lifeline for many ex-ATA, Aloha, MidEx, TWA, ABEX, and UAL folks.


Second: As far as the VA financials, ya'll are forgettin' somethin'; we're privately held and that "interest" is likely going back to the people who own us. The airline may "lose" money, but the owners are making money and that's all that counts, right? And who owns some of our airplanes? With registrations to companies located in some strip mall in Vegas and Salt Lake City and called the "521 leasing company" I can guarantee it isn't GCAS or ILFC. It's all a shell game where the 1% can hide and continue to amass their wealth and tell the rest of us we're lucky to have jobs because the company is losing money.


Third: There are many here that see the need for pay and retirement to improve, and if there aren't improvements in 2012 I think you'll see an organizing effort. While I have nothing personal against ALPA (all my former carriers were ALPA and I've done ALPA work in the past), you'll never see it at VX. Too many haters and people who feel they've been duped. We'll either get an in-house or go with Teamsters or TWU or someone else. There are people here I'd have never thought would support a union who are now saying they will. And then there are the ones who've been duped by the 1% into thinking they are IN the 1% or have some chance of being in the 1% and just hate unions period.

To your first point, it doesn't matter what the reason is anyone went to VA, and I'm not going to enter a circular argument about the point, but VA wages are a drag on the industry. I don't care what anyone says, and I'm not going to respond any further as this has been hashed out a million times before.

Further, I don't really fault guys for going to VA, for example. It's a free country and you can do what you want. But if you make that decision, at least own up to the effect airlines VA, GoJets, JetBlue, etc., have had on the industry. If I didn't have a "golden" career and I chose to go to VA, I'd just say, yeah, you're right. It doesn drag down the industry but I have no choice. If you don't like the decision, tough luck. The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

To your second point, that's just incorrect. The people/entities who earn the interest are the people who LOANED money to VA, which may or not may be the same people who contributed money or property to START-UP/ORGANIZE VA. Think about it like this: Suppose you and a group of people contribute money to start a corporation. You all put in $10,000 and start a business. A year later, the business needs a delivery truck, so they take out a loan from Bank A to buy the truck. Bank A gets the interest. The corporation gets the debt and pays the interest. The original founders and collecting the interest.

To your third point, I doubt you guys are getting a raise unless there is a mass exodus of pilots and the company has no other choice. They can't even afford to pay you what you're getting paid now. I don't care if you get a union or not, in my opinion if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

 

[Fubijaakr]

The guys that go to these undercutting airlines just get so defensive about what low wages and crappy work rules do the industry. Just own up to it and be done with it.

..if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

Two brilliant points. However, the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

 

[NEDude]

Further, I don't really fault guys for going to VA, for example. It's a free country and you can do what you want. But if you make that decision, at least own up to the effect airlines VA, GoJets, JetBlue, etc., have had on the industry.

To your third point, I doubt you guys are getting a raise unless there is a mass exodus of pilots and the company has no other choice. They can't even afford to pay you what you're getting paid now. I don't care if you get a union or not, in my opinion if anything you guys need to suck it up and take a pay cut so that your low fares can actually cover your costs. You can't undercut in the airline biz unless your wages (an airline's largest controllable costs) help with the undercutting! Your wages aren't low enough yet!

GoJets was endorsed by ALPA in jets for jobs - you know, where ALPA gives up scope so mainline can outsource good paying jobs to the poverty level wage paying regionals. So anyone who goes to GoJets should have the full blessing of any and all ALPA pilots.

The board of directors has already voted to approve a raise in 2012, just like they did last year. No union needed (yet).

 

[NEDude]

Two brilliant points. However, the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

This from the same man who badmouths his own union, shows unparalleled literary skill by over use of the word "doosh", and has been incorrectly predicting for over three years now that Virgin America: is facing imminent shutdown, will never take delivery of new airplanes, will never give raises to the pilots without a union, and the pilots will be constantly shunned and denied the jumpseat.

Frankly, given your track record fubi, I hope for nothing but more doom and gloom predictions from you.

 

[NEDude]

Talk about short sighted - you fail to recognize any of the other factors involved. Of course that would involve rational thought that your third grade brain cannot handle.

ALPA has at best turned a blind eye to the outsourcing of entry level mainline jobs to the regionals - a fact you cannot recognize.

ALPA has at best accepted the poverty level wages paid at the regionals that have put downward pressure on wages - a fact you cannot recognize.

Tell me, why can't your brain wrap itself around the cause and effect of the outsourcing? Do you not see that by giving up scope and accepting of poverty level wages at the regionals it creates an environment that makes it advantageous for management to outsource mainline flying? Have you not been seeing that over the past decade?! Can you not recognize the fact that every time ALPA signs off on the releasing of more scope, it creates less opportunity for pilots to move onto a mainline carrier and forces more pilots to live at poverty level wages? Can you not see that all of this has created a situation where poverty level wage paying ALPA carriers are now playing a part in driving ALPA legacy carriers out of business (refer to the case of Mesa's Hawaii operation and how it affected Aloha airlines)? Can you not see how that puts extreme downward pressure on wages and creates an environment in which regional pilots, pilots at companies that were driven out of business, or pilots that were furloughed because their jobs were outsourced to regionals, are now looking for other work? Is that too much to wrap your brain around?

These things are happening right in front of you and you fail to acknowledge any of them. You are so stuck on an argument that one airline's management used several years ago (an argument that did not even involve Virgin America) to blame all the ills of the industry on Virgin America pilots. It takes of lot of ignorant nerve to accuse me of being short sighted when you fail to see what has been happening right in front of your eyes.

Yes, I know, you are going to come back and call me some variation of 'doosh' and accuse me of drinking more red kool-aid. How original.

Still waiting for some answers fubi...

 

[NEDude]

NEdude,

You are very emotional in your arguments. A few points. TWA/AA merger amounted to an 8:1 integration or 52% staple. Allegheny/Mohawk which is referenced in McKaskill/Bond suggests a 50% staple. This 2% difference was also during a Ch.11 filing trending to CH.7. TWA was going to liquidate and they still received a 52% staple. Please tell me what you would have expected.
Regionals.
A 50 seater loses money, period. A Boyd research report of the AA filling states American will retire all Embraer ERJ 135/140/145, and some Bombardier CRJ 700 and ATR-72 by 2016 and begin retiring CRJ's in 2016. They are not cost effective and most routes may be flown with 319's. Unprofitable routes will simply be dropped. ERJ's and CRJ's are economically obsolete. This holds true for all SLP contracts. ALPA has nothing to do with the economics despite the opinion you state.

I understand you are upset about regional pay, I understand you are upset about VX pay and industry views of your benefits package but I must say AGAIN regional pilots are not worth the pay because the aircraft do not produce the revenue.
Also, this is not any unions fault. ALPA is not at fault for this. These are facts. This is not an opinion.

UAL has a stronger grasp on VX financials so I defer commentary.

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

 

[ualdriver]

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

You are one bitter dude, and it clouds your logic.

Your first paragraph assumes that major airline pilots haven't learned from history. I can assure you that at UAL you are absolutely, positively WRONG, and my buds at other carriers seem to say the right things as well concerning scope. But they can speak for themselves. Unless every major airline ends up in bankruptcy again and gets scope relief forced down their throats under the gavel of a bankruptcy judge, I doubt you will see any scope relief anytime soon. Well, maybe at AMR, but obviously the AMR pilots have lost a lot of control of their future.

Seriously, you need to step away from the keyboard and stop posting a lot of crazy, emotional half-truths like the post above that refer to "patterns" and unions caving where I don't even know what you're talking about. I witnessed the last 10 years and the effects of bankruptcy first hand and you're confusing the crap out of me.

 

[Lake Alice]

I totally agree with you on the economics of the 50-70 seat RJs, they are going away. But there is increased push from managements to allow even larger 90-100 seat aircraft to be flown by regionals. They will follow the same pattern they always have - threaten bankruptcy, throw a small token bone to their captains and then wait for the union to cave. The union will then follow its pattern and vote along the lines of seniority (slightly more captains than FOs), the scope will be given away, and larger airplanes will be flown by pilots making poverty level wages. This will be followed by more junior pilots being furloughed, captains being downgraded and more ALPA chest thumping about "raising the bar".

Sorry, but the pattern has played out too much over the last decade plus to make me believe any other result.

As for the TWA acquisition, you have just proved my point - ALPA is virtually powerless to provide you anything above and beyond what the law currently provides. However fubi and the other ALPA cheerleaders try to convince you are screwed in an acquisition if you do not have ALPA.

I haven't proven your point at all. ALPA negotiated the TWA integration prior to the M/B provisions. It would have been substantially worse under the system Jetblue or VA operate. Keep in mind the M/B provision stipulates a fair integration and suggests a 50% staple. Your actual integration will either based on an arbitrator who IS NOT bound by previous awards or if you don't enter arbitration then the president of your company will negotiate your integration for you. Also current ALPA MEC/LEC's are now being voted in by seniority block therefore each elected representative will vote based on their block and not the top heavy seniority system you suggest. Lastly these poverty wages you speak of are for first year pilots. Again, how much are you worth when you have 500-1000TT. Take the Buffalo accident as an example. Their experience is exactly why more experienced pilots deserve higher pay i.e., Hudson River.

Lastly, this board has been very patient with your post. I understand this is also a public forum but you have failed to provide a single economic fact to support any argument you have had regarding regionals, majors or VX's situation or unions.

For the record I don't care for ALPA, Teamsters or independents but for this industry a union is a necessary evil.

 

[Fubijaakr]

NEDude is simply someone who got furloughed and blames ALPA for it. He's clinging for dear life trying to justify working for wages/benefits that undercut the rest of the industry.

Quite frankly, places like VX, AGT and B6 are populated with bitter, anti-Union guys who can't understand that they got furloughed by management, not ALPA.

That's the primary reason B6 guys can't get a successful organizing drive done...too much misplaced anger.

 

[Lake Alice]

NEDude is simply someone who got furloughed and blames ALPA for it. He's clinging for dear life trying to justify working for wages/benefits that undercut the rest of the industry.

Quite frankly, places like VX, AGT and B6 are populated with bitter, anti-Union guys who can't understand that they got furloughed by management, not ALPA.

That's the primary reason B6 guys can't get a successful organizing drive done...too much misplaced anger.

So true. Usairs MEC, for example, was told by ALPA that an expectation of date of hire was unreasonable. Nicolau during mediation expressed his negative opinion of date of hire. Nicolau, during arbitration, refused to award date of hire. How was this ALPA's fault. B6 has hundreds of Usair pilots many of which voted yes for ALPA but many voted no.
ALPA has not been perfect but ALPA is not responsible for your furlough. Economics are responsible for your furlough.

 

[Fubijaakr]

ALPA has not been perfect but ALPA is not responsible for your furlough. Economics are responsible for your furlough.

Amen. Sing it, Sister. However, you'll never get guys like 'Dude to admit it. Its easier to sling mud at ALPA.

 

[Lake Alice]

NEdude it simply too emotional.

B6 is no better than a regional. The pay was bad, the benefits were bad, the retirement was bad, the schedules were bad. Much of this was changed by the threat of a union vote and while B6 is still behind in almost every category it's not the bane of the industry and most of that is due to union support.