AA toxic culture

[HA25]

If you take the time to read the full proposed legislation, you will see that someone is already trying to make this pay scale happen. It's worth your time to read the text.


4-7 of 8

operationorange.org
2. Minimum hourly rates of pay for payable hours in section 4.F shall be:

a. $300.00 per hour for widebody aircraft PIC/Captain,
b. $225.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft PIC/Captain,
c. $200.00 per hour for widebody aircraft SIC/First Officer,
Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act - Part 2
d. $150.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft SIC/First Officer.

I tellya, if we had a proper trade union like many professions in the world that worked together rather than this BS corportized ALPA mess we're stuck with and it ran like the European Guilds... they set a minimum pay for anything and everything.. none of this negotiation between an MEC and an airline.... the pay rate would be set at the national level and crammed down the throat of every carrier that wants to play "I can run an airline"

 

[waveflyer]

Flythere- I am a southwest pilot and would like to change the system. You're not even reading livinthesim's post- just going off on some far-right rant tangents. You just sound dumb.
Read what livinthesim is writing and tell me why we dont implement that gradually at WN?

Btw- where do you work?

 

[dragontamer]

Flythere -- you're about the only one making sense the last couple of pages. For all the communists -- How about individual companies decide how much and who they hire. I'll say it right here--if my company goes under, I will look elsewhere and when hired, would never expect to be placed above folks that were already there. What a bunch of entitled BS! We all take our chances but if we get knocked down in this very tough industry, we pick ourselves up, dust off and continue on or search for work in another industry. Or, I guess, some lie in the dirt and cry that life is not fair. There have been a lot of folks that had to start over for lower payer at a lower level in a separate company during this recession--it sucks but it's life.

For the American folks, please do not read the above as directed at you in any way. I feel for you and your families and hope the future turns out OK.

BTW - I'm a SWA guy also--obviously not in sync w/ Waveflyer.

 

[waveflyer]

Few are dragon tamer- but I'll still buy you a round-
That said, you also haven't read what livinthesim wrote- he didn't say any of what you countered with- so how about countering livinthesim's very capitalistic proposal.(?)

And be careful swa guys- it's a long career and Like everyone, we're a few greedy, hostile MBAs away from not being a winner- wanting change of our pay system is about putting yourself in your possible future and seeing if the end loaded pay disparities are really all that wise -
Oh- and you do work for the one airline run by democrats- and the ethos of the democratic capitalist are 99% why WN is such a great place to work- be careful when you equate liberal to commies- you piss on Herb when you do.

 

[HA25]

Flythere -- you're about the only one making sense the last couple of pages. For all the communists -- How about individual companies decide how much and who they hire. I'll say it right here--if my company goes under, I will look elsewhere and when hired, would never expect to be placed above folks that were already there. What a bunch of entitled BS! We all take our chances but if we get knocked down in this very tough industry, we pick ourselves up, dust off and continue on or search for work in another industry. Or, I guess, some lie in the dirt and cry that life is not fair. There have been a lot of folks that had to start over for lower payer at a lower level in a separate company during this recession--it sucks but it's life.

For the American folks, please do not read the above as directed at you in any way. I feel for you and your families and hope the future turns out OK.

BTW - I'm a SWA guy also--obviously not in sync w/ Waveflyer.

spoken just like a "I've got mine, you get yours" ladder puller....

Hope WN keeps on making it work and doesn't go the way of every other airline over history and you don't find yourself that high time, well paid and OUT OF WORK pilot looking to take care of his family on $40/hr at a 4th rate airline..

Life's good... thank God for it, cause your skill had nothing to do with it, trust me.

 

[flythere]

CAUTION:

Many pilots are financially illiterate and will think that such a system would be "screwing" them out of high pay later in life. These people are unfamiliar with a concept called "the time value of money".

The more that pay is front-loaded, the more of your total career pay is in your own hands and control earlier for investing, paying off student loans, whatever.

And if your company goes bankrupt, you are better off since you earned more of your career long-term earnings before the bankruptcy.

The huge scale difference between bottom and top is stupid and irrational.

So with that logic then you want to restructure the entire western pay and benefit system?? Tell me what job a person starts out making equal wages as a person whom as been at that same job for 20 yrs?? Does a police officer or a firefighter start out making top scale wages? Does a school teacher start out making top scale wages?? Does the auto mechanic at the toyota dealer start out making top scale or mid range salery?? No, they start out at entry level pay at the company they choose to work for.

So by your logic then a guy who flew -8's for Mesa for 6 yrs should walk into Southwest or FedEx and make the same as an F/O who's been there for 9 yrs??

Certain workers in specialized fields or pro athelets can demad or negotiate pay based on skills or performance, unfortunatley we can't! As long as you get airlines that want to come into a market and under cut the competition, to run them out, we'll have this system. By forcing all airlines to pay the same, based on a national scale, would be like saying all quarterbacks in the nfl can only be payed $XX.XX

If an airline wants to pay it's employees a lower wage, but give then other perks, then so be it! Let it be between that company, that labor group and ultimatley the people who pay for that service! Not some govt agency or some union back east!

Again, I hope nobody is forcing you guys to stay in this terrible profession or live in this screwed up country! I hear airlines in India, China and other parts of the world are hiring, and they like to hire american pilots, maybe some of you should consider looking into these great job opportunities!!!


http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Se...Openings-Pilot-Jobs-By-Region/8/International

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/jobs/pilots_jobs/

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/browse/pilot.htm

http://www.flightwork.com/pilot-jobs.html


This BK filing that AMR just announced will be interesting. I wish them the best and hope cool heads and rational solutions will prevail!!!!

 

[sbav8r]

Rational solutions will not prevail. Execs will prevail, and subsequently bail with billions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for capitalism and the free market; however, we don't work in anything resembling a free market. Have you read the RLA? None of the other trade groups you mentioned have the constraints that have been forced upon us. The current system, designed by corporate executives, is failing this profession and needs fixing. You're a professional aviator, and you deserve to be compensated for the valuable skill that you posses, and you should not be artificially fused to a company that falters due to poor management and corporate raiders. The executives have created a system that greatly benefits them, and there is nothing wrong with us as a profession demanding the same securities and benefits.

 

[livin'thesim]

Flythere-

I would try to explain to you what you are misunderstanding about my proposal, but the truth is that you have already decided that you are against whatever it is, even though I can tell that you don't understand the proposal.

You seem to suffer from "opposite-man" syndrome. You're here for a fight. I won't give you one.

You are spouting blunt-instrument platitudes, and I will not dull the fine edge of reason against the granite slab of reactionary "thought".

 

[HA25]

Flythere-

I would try to explain to you what you are misunderstanding about my proposal, but the truth is that you have already decided that you are against whatever it is, even though I can tell that you don't understand the proposal.

You seem to suffer from "opposite-man" syndrome. You're here for a fight. I won't give you one.

You are spouting blunt-instrument platitudes, and I will not dull the fine edge of reason against the granite slab of reactionary "thought".

You nailed it... he's either set in his ways or a Chief Pilot / DO or higher..

 

[flythere]

You nailed it... he's either set in his ways or a Chief Pilot / DO or higher..

you can say I'm set in my ways!! Been around a long time, seen enough over the years to form my own opinion! Just expressing my opinion, that's still allowed isn't it?!?!

 

[HA25]

Just expressing my opinion, that's still allowed isn't it?!?!

you are always entitled to your own set of opinions, just not your own set of facts..

 

[Flopgut]

Rational solutions will not prevail. Execs will prevail, and subsequently bail with billions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for capitalism and the free market; however, we don't work in anything resembling a free market. Have you read the RLA? None of the other trade groups you mentioned have the constraints that have been forced upon us. The current system, designed by corporate executives, is failing this profession and needs fixing. You're a professional aviator, and you deserve to be compensated for the valuable skill that you posses, and you should not be artificially fused to a company that falters due to poor management and corporate raiders. The executives have created a system that greatly benefits them, and there is nothing wrong with us as a profession demanding the same securities and benefits.

Great post! Here is the fix: The RLA has a benefits side that aviation is excluded from. www.rrb.gov Among other things, RRB has a re-hiring scheme that functions in place of a NSL. If you are furloughed, you have right of first refusal to a job at another airline that is hiring. You don't come in with seniority, but you do come in with whatever rate that contract pays for your full longevity. All RLA covered companies would be required to participate. Additionally, if you are in RRB you are not paying SS. You are working to fund a 2 tier SS like retirement fund. 30 years of service and at least 60 years of age, you can retire with full benefits...

 

[instructordude]

If you take the time to read the full proposed legislation, you will see that someone is already trying to make this pay scale happen. It's worth your time to read the text.


4-7 of 8

operationorange.org
2. Minimum hourly rates of pay for payable hours in section 4.F shall be:

a. $300.00 per hour for widebody aircraft PIC/Captain,
b. $225.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft PIC/Captain,
c. $200.00 per hour for widebody aircraft SIC/First Officer,
Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act - Part 2
d. $150.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft SIC/First Officer.

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

 

[G4dude]

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

It is so obvious, I don't understand why union types don't get it. if you render your employer uncompetitive, it won't be able to compete in the marketplace. United is the perfect example, Delta too. Airtran exists only because of the Delta pilot contract of the late 90s.

 

[G4dude]

Rescaling the longevity-based system front-loads a pilot's income.

A company that becomes much more profitable can hire away experienced talent by offering those experienced pilots a living wage.

The best part about this method is that it rewards pilots evenly according to the productivity of a unit of pilot labor.

An FO on a 737 earning 119/hr is not more productive than an FO on the same aircraft earning 74/hr.

True, a probationary pilot may be less productive than a fully qualified pilot, and therefore a probationary scale for the first year or two is something that most pilots could endure. (You do have some savings, right?)

Rescaling the longevity pay gives the high-time guys portability. It gives the new guys a living wage.

A good airline could steal talented pilots away from a bad airline.

Nowhere is it written in stone that unionization, seniority, and longevity pay must ALWAYS be deployed in the ways we used them in the past.


The BIGGEST benefit is that it works against management gutting of contracts by scaring those with lots of longevity. It allows pilot groups to call management's bluff.

"Screw with me, I will quit. I will take 20% cut to switch carriers." No longer do you have to drop from over $100k to $35k.

This method also means that when an airline folds, you can hire the qualified pilots at a wage that does not insult their professional status, instead of hiring low-timers who are willing to work for peanuts.

This allows talented pilots who have paid their dues to remain in their chosen profession.

I agree! This is original thinking, which is rare in this world.

 

[HA25]

It is so obvious, I don't understand why union types don't get it. if you render your employer uncompetitive, it won't be able to compete in the marketplace. United is the perfect example, Delta too. Airtran exists only because of the Delta pilot contract of the late 90s.

you're wrong..

first off, if EVERYONE payed that scale, then how is anyone going to be at any competitive disadvantage?

2nd off, Airtran is in existence because DAL didn't want to be hit with anti-trust action for ATL.... they already had 90% of traffic with Airtran during certain peak travel, they didn't need 99%

 

[HalinTexas]

Great post! Here is the fix: The RLA has a benefits side that aviation is excluded from. www.rrb.gov Among other things, RRB has a re-hiring scheme that functions in place of a NSL. If you are furloughed, you have right of first refusal to a job at another airline that is hiring. You don't come in with seniority, but you do come in with whatever rate that contract pays for your full longevity. All RLA covered companies would be required to participate. Additionally, if you are in RRB you are not paying SS. You are working to fund a 2 tier SS like retirement fund. 30 years of service and at least 60 years of age, you can retire with full benefits...

Interesting, but not quite correct:

Financing

Payroll taxes paid by railroad employers and their employees are the primary source of funding for the railroad retirement-survivor benefit programs. Railroad retirement taxes, which have historically been higher than social security taxes, are calculated, like benefit payments, on a two-tier basis. Railroad retirement tier I payroll taxes are coordinated with social security taxes so that employees and employers pay tier I taxes at the same rate as social security taxes. In addition, both employees and employers pay tier II taxes which are used to finance railroad retirement benefit payments over and above social security levels. These tier II taxes are based on the ratio of certain asset balances to the sum of benefit payments and administrative expenses.

Revenues in excess of benefit payments are invested to provide additional trust fund income. The National Railroad Retirement Investment Trust manages and invests railroad retirement assets. Railroad retirement funds are invested in non-governmental assets, as well as in governmental securities.

Additional trust fund income is derived from the financial interchange with the social security trust funds, revenues from Federal income taxes on railroad retirement benefits, and appropriations from general treasury revenues provided after 1974 as part of a phase-out of certain vested dual benefits.

It just substitutes a Tier I and II tax for SS taxes. This is also covers unemployment benefits under RRB. These Tier II taxes can be raised if there is a shortfall. It appears that Congressional action is not required to do so, like SS taxes. It also appears that the RRB is allowed to invest more readily in "non-governmental" securities. Could this be Wall Street?

Interesting system. First I've heard of it. It's not an investment system and appears to limit benefits payments, much like SS, so you could be paying to much for this retirement fund. You're definitely beholden to it with little or no choice in the matter. I'm going to read further.

 

[Flopgut]

Interesting, but not quite correct:



It just substitutes a Tier I and II tax for SS taxes. This is also covers unemployment benefits under RRB. These Tier II taxes can be raised if there is a shortfall. It appears that Congressional action is not required to do so, like SS taxes. It also appears that the RRB is allowed to invest more readily in "non-governmental" securities. Could this be Wall Street?

Interesting system. First I've heard of it. It's not an investment system and appears to limit benefits payments, much like SS, so you could be paying to much for this retirement fund. You're definitely beholden to it with little or no choice in the matter. I'm going to read further.

Thank God somebody finally went to that link!! Keep looking at it please. It's not super sexy, but it sure as hell has teeth. Could be a game changer. Please keep up the feedback.

 

[sbav8r]

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

1. As previously stated all airlines would pay the minimum. It's not about stealing from the wealthy or fortunate to feed the poor, this is to do away with a system that fusses you to an airline for life. No pilot would bump another pilot out of his seat at a new airline; however, if American pilots wanted to jump ship they could, and still make a decent living at the new airline. This changes the game at the negotiating table. As it is, we stand to lose everything if we dare to leave a company. Besides, as others have pointed out, why does it make any sense at all to make more money at the end of our career? We lose the benefits of compund interest, and our retirement suffers.

2. Unrealistic? I'm worth at least 150/ hr, and so are you. You have no idea how much your skills would be worth in an unrestricted free market, or a true capitalist system without the constraints of the RLA. The entire free world has huge demand for the skills, training, and judgment that you've developed and accumulated over years of flying. Why is a lawyer, physician, or executive worth more than you? You have a graduate degree, it's called an ATP, and unlike a CEO it wasn't obtained from 2 years of texts and lectures. It was obtained from years of flying cargo in the trenches, fighters over hostile territory, shooting approaches down to mins etc... You're every bit as worthy as any of those groups. Have you noticed how much the medical community is learning from our profession? Google medicine and CRM. Read the "Checklist Manifesto." They learn from our profession because we are outstanding at learning from our mistakes and failures and adapting. The result is an amazingly safe and efficient air transportation system. You are part of that. You deserve what your skills, knowledge, and training are truly worth, and you owe it to every aviator that came before you to uphold that standard.

Again, please read through it, or at the very least go to the full legislation tab and read the summary Appendix A.

http://www.operationorange.org/

 

[Freight Dog]

Either there will be a new crop of pilots who will overthrow this insane seniority system and seniority-based pay; or there will have to be a total collapse of the US airline industry.

Any other way, and US pilots will continue to be some of the world's worst-paid pilots.