Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan Reallignment

[bri5150]

Hey Mesaba guys,

Why are you trying to spin the flowthrough situation to us as if that's a good deal for 9E?

In the very first days after the award I may have said that. As you may recall, towards the beginning of this thread I said we ate our sh!t sandwich right away, and it seems as though yours was a bit delayed. Generally, you guys got more seniority, and we got better fences.

 

[DoinTime]

I blame 9e UNION...

The current realignment heartache is being caused by two things. 1) Quota system for positions (proposed by XJ Merger Committee and adopted by Bloch) and 2) Vacancy and displacement language that carried over from the XJ contract.

Had this realignment been done under old PCL rules, the MEM Saab guys would have just been absorbed into other positions that their seniority could have held and all other available positions would have gone in accordance with seniority/fences. Not this mass displacement hysteria that this thing generated. These Mesaba rules have managed to screw everyone over, pilots and management alike.

This is no blame here for anyone at 9E.

 

[xjhawk]

so you are saying that when your perfect old contract system displaced people they just went where their seniority could hold? SO where would the bottom guys be put if there were only so many positions? or would they just create more positions? they would create positions that a senior guy could not bid into? weird-but would save the company a lot of money.

Oh and by the way, I would rather have DOH than the worthless fences. As others have pointed out, I think XJ is above their quota-so that is pretty much over now-any new positions are now under the new seniority list. in effect screwing XJ guys who did not fair as well as your average 9E captain.

 

[bri5150]

Not much training involved when you only have one fleet type as well (yes, I know you have 900's, but that's just differences)

 

[Flyer1015]

This is no blame here for anyone at 9E.

Sorry DoinTime. I agree with you on everything else, but right here, I must disagree.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Sh!t sandwich!! I just wanted to type that, its great....LOL

I'm just hoping not to many more people want to come to MSP in round two and three, just remember that winters are REALLY cold here and the people are MEAN. Also, you will have a much better schedule in DTW, JFK, MEM, ATL or any Colgan base...

 

[xjhawk]

agree, and housing is super expensive and you better have a AWD expensive car in order to live here

 

[CptMurf]

Hey there Mr. Mesaba guy,

I don't have much to say. I just watch.

FWIW your XJ CA rep for the MEM base bid DTW. AND XJ put their LGA base to the MEM XJ council. Silly politics. He's no longer eligible AND you just gave MEM more votes.


Think, review, speak,

-Higney

My idea of politics right now, is to put the best people we can into those union positions. It doesn't matter to me what pre merger company they came from, we are in this together now. I know nothing about some of the people that are running. Others, previous MEC/LEC officials, have track records. I will not vote for those that have proven how incompetent, unorganized, or short sighted they are. I have already judged those individuals, and cast my vote accordingly. I can only hope everyone else does the same, instead of voting pre merger "party" lines.

 

[sinkrate]

Hey Mesaba guys,

Why are you trying to spin the flowthrough situation to us as if that's a good deal for 9E? As your flowthroughs leave, your ratio could drop below 279. In that very likely case, only a Mesaba pilot can replace those shoes until you're back to 279. The most likely scenario is that enough XJ guys will leave to drop below the ratio quota. Remember, you just barely met the quota now. Whereas at Pinnacle, our 95 CRJ-900 guys are in ATL, and most of them are senior farts that are not going anywhere. Don't even mention the 541 -200 quota, because we are way above that. The ratios don't help Pinnacle one bit. To make it worse, as Mesaba flowthroughs leave, their shoes will only be filled with Mesaba pilots because of dropping below the quota of 279.

Pinnacle got screwed up the butthole on this one. Looking at the entire realignment, about 10 of our guys that were junior Captains have now been displaced back to the right seat, at a different base. Only 2 FOs upgraded to Captain, one was hired in 2004 and the other in 2003. Instantly, we are now at a 7-8 year upgrade. And as I said before, this is only the beginning. Next: LGA, MSP, and DTW Saabs.

If you think/game the entire process through for the next few years you will realize

-Former Mesaba pilots will always be at or below the CA ratio number
-Former PCL pilots will always be at or above the ratio number
-for practical purposes no PCL pilots will upgrade to 200 CA or hold 900 CA until every former Mesaba pilot has upgraded. There will be a few on each bid - after Mesaba pilots have reached the ratio number.
-Essentially, for bidding CA vacancies, where you are on the seniority list is irrrelvant if you are a PCL pilot. Those positions are reserved for former Mesaba pilots.

Do you think Bloch really intended this? Someone should ask him.

 

[Flyer1015]

If you think/game the entire process through for the next few years you will realize

-Former Mesaba pilots will always be at or below the CA ratio number
-Former PCL pilots will always be at or above the ratio number
-for practical purposes no PCL pilots will upgrade to 200 CA or hold 900 CA until every former Mesaba pilot has upgraded. There will be a few on each bid - after Mesaba pilots have reached the ratio number.
-Essentially, for bidding CA vacancies, where you are on the seniority list is irrrelvant if you are a PCL pilot. Those positions are reserved for former Mesaba pilots.

Do you think Bloch really intended this? Someone should ask him.

The above assessment is pretty accurate, IMO. The only two upgrades we had on the 9E side were hired in 2003 and 2004. For the forseeable future, our upgrades will only be the super-senior 7-8+ year guys who get it once the Mesaba/Colgan ratios are filled.

F*** Bloch. I still can't believe we left our fate in the hands of one geriatric lawyer/businessman.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

The above assessment is pretty accurate, IMO. The only two upgrades we had on the 9E side were hired in 2003 and 2004. For the forseeable future, our upgrades will only be the super-senior 7-8+ year guys who get it once the Mesaba/Colgan ratios are filled.

F*** Bloch. I still can't believe we left our fate in the hands of one geriatric lawyer/businessman.

Maybe you should go look at how many of the Mesaba junior captains got pushed out of our seats as well... We are taking hits too, and with the jobbing on the seniority we took, even if we do manage to get on the 200 it will be basically as a street captain sitting reserve for years. No thanks I have sat reserve over 6 years, it's time for a change.

And that pain will go up exponentially for us with MSP and DTW closing. since especially in MSP the Saab guys are senior to many of the bottom Mesaba guys but not the Pinnacle ones.

 

[bri5150]

Sinkrate and Flyer,

What are you guys talking about? "Once the Mesaba/Colgan ratios are filled" and "Former Mesaba pilots will always be at or below the CA ratio number". THE RATIOS ARE ALREADY FILLED!!!! There has been upgrades on both the 200 and 900 by Colgan pilots. So, unless there is a misaward, the fences are filled and are no longer binding until someone leaves, and it seems as though there are more leaving from the Pinnacle side right now anyways.

 

[Grinder10]

Sinkrate and Flyer,

What are you guys talking about? "Once the Mesaba/Colgan ratios are filled" and "Former Mesaba pilots will always be at or below the CA ratio number". THE RATIOS ARE ALREADY FILLED!!!! There has been upgrades on both the 200 and 900 by Colgan pilots. So, unless there is a misaward, the fences are filled and are no longer binding until someone leaves, and it seems as though there are more leaving from the Pinnacle side right now anyways.

Are you sure that the Colgan pilots are filling "Mesaba" slots? They could be filling "Pinnacle" seats since we are and will always be above our protected number of seats.

 

[DoinTime]

Do you think Bloch really intended this? Someone should ask him.

Quotas are a pretty ugly way to protect premerger groups and their "intent" is to ensure that attrition from one premerger group is filled by its respective premerger pilots. These quotas are no different. Without fleet growth, these quotas will always be in play for their entire 5 year duration and the premerger group to get the most upgrades will be the group with the most captain attrition.

PCL was well over their -200 quota but with the approximate 10 CAs leaving per month from the premerger PCL group we will be back at our quota in the next few months. Considering that nobody ever seems to leave Mesaba, I would anticipate that their premerger FO's won't be seeing a lot of upgrades. Maybe that will change once they become Pinnacle pilots.

 

[bri5150]

Are you sure that the Colgan pilots are filling "Mesaba" slots? They could be filling "Pinnacle" seats since we are and will always be above our protected number of seats.

Both Mesaba and Pinnacle quotas need to be filled before any Colgan pilot can touch an upgrade into a 900 or 200. The bases don't matter.

 

[sinkrate]

Quotas are a pretty ugly way to protect premerger groups and their "intent" is to ensure that attrition from one premerger group is filled by its respective premerger pilots. These quotas are no different. Without fleet growth, these quotas will always be in play for their entire 5 year duration and the premerger group to get the most upgrades will be the group with the most captain attrition.

PCL was well over their -200 quota but with the approximate 10 CAs leaving per month from the premerger PCL group we will be back at our quota in the next few months. Considering that nobody ever seems to leave Mesaba, I would anticipate that their premerger FO's won't be seeing a lot of upgrades. Maybe that will change once they become Pinnacle pilots.

Attrition for the former MSA CA's will be as great, if not greater than the attrition for the PCL group. Plus you forget how the top of the list was constructed. When a 900 CA leaves a MSA 200 CA will take his place.

One small surprise in the award was the very small number of PCL FO's that bid for the 900. It seems to me if you were a year or more from upgrade that would be the AC to be in. Note that one of the displaced PCL CA's went to 900 FO in MEM. As the 200 schedules get widgetized they are starting to suck badly.

 

[Flyer1015]

bri, the Mesaba quota is filled at the moment, but won't be one the Mesaba flowthroughs go to Delta starting next year. Any drop below 279 at Mesaba must be filled by a Mesaba pilot before a Pinnacle/Colgan pilot.

 

[bri5150]

bri, the Mesaba quota is filled at the moment, but won't be one the Mesaba flowthroughs go to Delta starting next year. Any drop below 279 at Mesaba must be filled by a Mesaba pilot before a Pinnacle/Colgan pilot.

I bet there will be more Pinnacle guys leaving between now and when Delta starts hiring than all of those that will flow. The last I heard, Delta won't even start hiring until 2013.

 

[Flyprdu]

I bet there will be more Pinnacle guys leaving between now and when Delta starts hiring than all of those that will flow. The last I heard, Delta won't even start hiring until 2013.

I agree, but it will be mostly FOs staring down a 7 year upgrade.

 

[Flyer1015]

And is it just me, or did anyone else note the Colgan Q400 Captains getting jet Captain positions? Colgan is already below their quota, and as more and more Q Captains move over to jet positions, they will always stay under their 193 quota. What this means is that Colgan gets an exclusive one-way moving deal to jet Captain positions, while their Qs are untouched by Pinnacle/Mesaba. How is that "fair and equitable?"