ALPA MEC tells Gary Kelly no thanks..again

[Sacha]

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S

I almost lost my home during the Eastern strike. My classmate and good friend refused to cross the line despite the fact that his wife wanted the Captain upgrade that would come with it. She filed for divorce and took his two young boys whom he adored. She cleaned out their bank account and left the state. One day we were walking the line together and I sensed something was wrong but he would say nothing about what was happening. I tried to get him to go out with us for some beers but he said he just wanted to go home. He went home and drove into his garage. He shut the garage door, but he didn't shut the ignition off.

The bank had foreclosed on his home that day. He was a Navy A4 driver. The greatest guy in the world. All he ever told me was his wife wanted him to be a SCAB. We found out the rest at his funeral.

Now what were you saying about what I enjoy is a result of what others fought for?

 

[tzskipper]

I almost lost my home during the Eastern strike. My classmate and good friend refused to cross the line despite the fact that his wife wanted the Captain upgrade that would come with it. She filed for divorce and took his two young boys whom he adored. She cleaned out their bank account and left the state. One day we were walking the line together and I sensed something was wrong but he would say nothing about what was happening. I tried to get him to go out with us for some beers but he said he just wanted to go home. He went home and drove into his garage. He shut the garage door, but he didn't shut the ignition off.

The bank had foreclosed on his home that day. He was a Navy A4 driver. The greatest guy in the world. All he ever told me was his wife wanted him to be a SCAB. We found out the rest at his funeral.

Now what were you saying about what I enjoy is a result of what others fought for?

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long.

This was your question.

Again, with all due respect (as most of us that have been doing this for 20+ years have our own scars), I provided an opinion on this specific statement.

S

 

[Andy]

I have a feeling Andy plenty of high cost lawyers are looking over that agreement and getting ready for possible arbitration.

Absolutely; all three parties' (SWA, SWAPA, ATALPA) lawyers are combing over the agreement and noting both strengths and weaknesses for their clients. The fourth party to the agreement - AT management - is really no longer a stakeholder in the agreement and they have little/no stake in the future.
At the same time, SWA management has got bean counters crunching out the cost of multiple different scenarios. But from GK's statements, I'd say that this comes down to more than money in the mind of SWA management. SWA's a different animal than other airlines in that everyone there drinks the koolaid. My UAL koolaid wore off before I was off of probation. (Funny side story - when I finally made it back to LAX, I found my Chief Pilot's letter dated 9 Sep 01 congratulating me for completing probation). So this is more than simply dollars and cents for the front office.

All three parties are preparing for arbitration. But one would be naive if they thought that SWAPA and SWA weren't working on alternative solutions such as the ones that I've discussed multiple times on this board. ... I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and if I can think of them, you'd better believe that a high priced lawyer has already made a rough plan of execution and the bean counters have a dollar figure attached to it.

Looking at recent awards, with two airlines with similar aircraft types and business plans (domestic LCCs with limited International flying), I would guess the award will be A HECK OF A LOT BETTER than the first offer.

Similar? On the surface, yes. Open up the hood and they are vastly different companies in just about every measure. How an arbitrator quantifies the value/liability of those differences is anyone's guess (although the high priced lawyers have quantified an educated guess).
Frankly, I could make a decent case for improving either side with respect to SL9.

And the pay will eventually follow, no chance of a permanent B-scale.

I agree with you on that one. I don't believe in a B scale. But I don't expect to see 717 pay to be at the same rate as 737 pay; 717 pay will be at a lower rate. And if SWA pay rates were in place prior to the acquisition, AT would show a large loss. AT was operating on razor thin margins under the old pay rates.

I just hope that Katz isn't making the same unrealistic promises that he made to the Easties; he should be downward managing ATALPA's expectations.

 

[redflyer65]

Similar? On the surface, yes. Open up the hood and they are vastly different companies in just about every measure.

OYS has a hard time understanding this. Clueless really.

Great post Andy as always. There's a ton of people on here that just simply comprohend the truth and the many different facets to this purchase.

RF

 

[Sacha]

Are you serious? The "middle finger" was raised because of management and their negotiating style. To imply that any pilot group should just roll over and take it, is about as ignorant a statement I think could be made. Again, it begs the next question; What data do you think Herb used to determine what "fairly paid" was? To ignore what those groups that created the payscales and workrules that you benefit from went through, and then turn and blame them for their management induced relationships is unbelievable.

S

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S

This was your question.

Again, with all due respect (as most of us that have been doing this for 20+ years have our own scars), I provided an opinion on this specific statement.

S

Your implication is the Southwest employees, especially the pilots, have ridden the gravy train of sacrifices made by the other airline employees.

Ok. But then how do you reconcile that with the numerous statements by many on this forum that the Airtran employees carried the company on their backs for years and made it into the highly successful airline that it is today.
Using your logic, the wonderful contract they signed AFTER SWA bought them should be attributed to all the other airlines especially SWA. We raised the bar for them and it was nothing they did themselves. Is that it? Slippery slope.

 

[tzskipper]

Your implication is the Southwest employees, especially the pilots, have ridden the gravy train of sacrifices made by the other airline employees.

Ok. But then how do you reconcile that with the numerous statements by many on this forum that the Airtran employees carried the company on their backs for years and made it into the highly successful airline that it is today.
Using your logic, the wonderful contract they signed AFTER SWA bought them should be attributed to all the other airlines especially SWA. We raised the bar for them and it was nothing they did themselves. Is that it? Slippery slope.

Sacha,

Just to bring this back home, I do think that the payscales and workrules that you now enjoy are a result of the hard fought negotiations by unions other than your own. I know SWAPA has been successful to date in their negotiations, but to say that the work done by others did not play a role in setting the parameters (starting points?) of your negotiations, I don't agree with.

I don't really care so much about continuing this discussion into your last two points. However, I will say that yes, your contract helped them. But the question still remains; had they not been acquired by an airline with a benevolent management, would they have had to do it themselves? Probably not, but with a 98% strike vote, I think they were ready to go all the way.

Best of luck.

S

 

[Nindiri]

I'm being told by a SWA pilot in another thread that the SWAPA will not even be negotiating in good faith this week, If this is true, why did SWAPA invite AT to further negotiating sessions in the first place? Instigating sham negotiations is a questionable tactic, to say the least. Very disappointing, if true.

 

[redflyer65]

Ninidiri,

I'm with Gup at this point. Your either clueless or an idiot.

How do you state that SWAPA is negotiating in bad faith when ALPA...


1- Has delayed this at every single turn?

2- Sent the MC to Dallas to negotiate, but in the end stated they gave them no guidelines, and they were 'shocked' at the outcome?

3- Took almost three weeks to turn down the AIP that SWAPA voted 19-0 in favor of?

Your statements are completely out of left field. I'm still waiting for you to post any info regarding a pure staple from SWAPA. We've been asking for it for several weeks. Still crickets buddy.

RF

 

[jball2]

Not true Nindiri. They said they are willing to hear what AAI has to say but there is nothing more to give. That is not bad faith, that is impasse.

I will not try to predict the future like some on both sides have on here. I want an amicable solution but many on here, on both sides refuse to acknowledge the realities of the situation at hand. There is a lot of pride and misunderstanding on BOTH sides that leads to the ridiculous statements and arguments being made on this and other web boards. I will let the experts deal with it until such a time I am afforded a vote. If it goes to Arby's, my life will go on. I might be disappointed I might not. Either way, getting as spooled up as people do on this forum is a sure way to medical out young. That's quality of life none of us signed up for. Best of luck to us all!

 

[Nindiri]

Ninidiri,

I'm with Gup at this point. Your either clueless or an idiot.

How do you state that SWAPA is negotiating in bad faith when ALPA...

RF

Ther you go again. It seems that some of you just can't discuss anything without resorting to personal insults. Very sad.

But to answer your question, I did not state it, I asked if it was true because a SWA pilot in another thread told me that SWAPA was not really negotiating this week. I simply asked for confirmation of what your colleague told me.

 

[Andy]

OYS has a hard time understanding this. Clueless really.

Great post Andy as always. There's a ton of people on here that just simply comprohend the truth and the many different facets to this purchase.

RF

I respectfully disagree on your assessment of OYS. While he has a different point of view than me, he raises some valid points. OYS and I have the advantage of being emotionally detached from the subject. ... I personally believe that OYS is an ex-UAL, current DAL pilot coming off of probation. I haven't scrolled through his posting history but seem to recall him being one of the 2172.
I can guarantee that more than a couple of my posts draw the same response from AirTran pilots - a couple have (understandably) taken shots at me. Best strategy? Read the opposing person's argument and formulate a factual counterargument to it. If you take that approach, you'll find that after the verbal jousting is over, you've strengthened your position because you've now incorporated/disarmed the other person's argument/position and have made your argument stronger.
I've certainly rolled around in the mud many a time on this board so I don't have much room to speak on not doing so, but I think that a witty response goes a lot further. JMHO.

 

[Nindiri]

I will let the experts deal with it until such a time I am afforded a vote. If it goes to Arby's, my life will go on. I might be disappointed I might not. Either way, getting as spooled up as people do on this forum is a sure way to medical out young. That's quality of life none of us signed up for. Best of luck to us all!

Well said.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Why all the fear mongering? I understand the desire to steam roll the other pilot group, but they chose option B...let an arbritor decide. Why the SWAPA fear?

Because they know they're wrong. Period, end of story.

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

Yep, apples and oranges.

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

The entire FI discussion in a nutshell.

nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others?

Actually, the nickname was "Cobra" but you reveal your lack of knowledge/intellect once again.

Not lecturing big fella--just asking a question. Guess you're not capable of answering. So be it. Enjoy arbritration.

They won't.

After your SLI is over, you may want that rec. Be nice, and it's yours! Godspeed!

Yeah, there are a bunch of SWA f/os who are going to enjoy yanking gear for the next 15 years. Oh well, they'll get paid a lot of money.....

I'm being told by a SWA pilot in another thread that the SWAPA will not even be negotiating in good faith this week, If this is true, why did SWAPA invite AT to further negotiating sessions in the first place? Instigating sham negotiations is a questionable tactic, to say the least. Very disappointing, if true.

Are you surprised? Really?

Ther you go again. It seems that some of you just can't discuss anything without resorting to personal insults. Very sad.

Yep. Threats and name calling. That's all they got.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Yep. Threats and name calling. That's all they got.

That along with a stronger union, better resources and the strongest company in the world backing SWAPA. 40 year history of profitability, never furloughed, growth plans, balance sheet, safety record, etc. etc. etc. You get the picture.

 

[jonjuan]

Ninidiri,

I'm with Gup at this point. Your either clueless or an idiot.

There's a public High school and state college education for you.

 

[Bake]

SWA guys, Flightinfo is like a strip club in Abilene Tx. NOT worth going too. You know what I mean. Get on Prune if you want to vent or argue, but not here. We are not helping anyone here. If you have to come to fI.com, be a read only type of guy/gal. Enough of the bickering. AT guys are fighting for their lives, we are fighting for money. This will never lead to a good debate. Nobody wins. Not them, not us. Leave it alone. I will too.

 

[jonjuan]

That along with a stronger union, better resources and the strongest company in the world backing SWAPA.

Nope, nope, and again nope. 3 swings and 3 misses. Keep dreaming, sweetie.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Bake,

AT guys are fighting for their lives, we are fighting for money. This will never lead to a good debate. Nobody wins. Not them, not us. Leave it alone. I will too.

AT guys are not fighting for their lives and we're not fighting for money. We already have the contract. We are already SWA pilots. As Steve Chase (your union president said)

" [FONT=Palatino Linotype, Palatino, Helvetica]AirTran decided that $2 million extra in career earnings per pilot and a job with the best airline in aviation wasn’t enough for them. They want your seniority too. That’s not something SWAPA is willing to give them."


[/FONT]

 

[WildcatFan]

Some animosity? There was a lot of animosity. For years. There were Republic pilot friends of mine who all Vietnam vets, F4's, A4 drivers who were early 70's hires at Hughes Airwest, who still couldn't hold anything but the left seat of an old,broken down DC9 in the late 80's, while guys 20 years younger or more with 84 hire dates at Northwest were left seat in the DC10,757 after being on the property for 5 or 6 years. No big deal. That was fair right?

"this led to fences off of the wide body equipment. Other than that,it was a DOH merger"

Sounds good to me. DOH merger. Fence ATL and the 717's. And rescind the pay upgrade for the 717. Sounds fair to me.

Also, you might want to expound a little further as to the animosity on BOTH sides of Republic/Northwest. Why were the Northwest pilots upset? I realize if you actually put it out there, it may expose the hypocrisy of many ALPA pilots in general and more than a few ALPA pilots on this forum from other airlines in particular. There is that darn "Emperor with No Clothes" again.

DOH can kiss my #$@. These airlines arent equal. Sacha why dont you put a sock in it.