SWA going against McCaskill Bond?

[BR715]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

 

[GuppyWN]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

Bless your heart!

Gup

 

[Devil Dawg]

and 9/11 was an inside job!

 

[buzzfly]

The interesting part is your MEC put no value in the possibility of your scenario happening. Even if it was a 5% chance, you should have been allowed to vote on the agreement. For some reason the financial gains are viewed seperately from a fair and equitable seniority list integration. The are intertwined, not just by me, our negotiating committe or your MEC, but will be by the Arbitrator.

Are you happy, disappointed, furious that your MEC voted for you? My wife would have been furious.

Interesting on how your banter is already at lawsuit stage (TWA pilots). The stage that implies you have no job.

 

[waveflyer]

Never intended? You turned down a fair agreement- One that when looking at our seniority at retirement show significant losses to Swapa pilots.
As for your other argument - I wouldn't count on you having better lawyers than Herb- he was arguing to the supreme court when you were a fuzzy feeling in your daddy's sac-
and I'm pretty sure that MB doesn't mean you get to run the company and demand anything you want. It's still a capitalistic economy and you got bought.

 

[Slug]

fair or not fair in whose eyes? I say the AIP wasn't fair to the SWA pilots. Your career earnings dramatically increased, mine not so much.

 

[Kharma Police]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

Dude, have some ice cream and STFU, you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[yoyoma]

ever heard of guadalupe holdings?

 

[Kharma Police]

ever heard of guadalupe holdings?

No, but I've made some delicious ice cream after visiting Guadalupe.

 

[Sacha]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

1,2, and 3 are spot on. As for your opening and closing statements,well...
Good luck with that. ALPA will be tied up in bankruptcy court. I am sure many of your brethren at Air tran are beginning to realize how bad you f'&$@k up.
That's why the ice cream dork told you to STFU.

 

[Kharma Police]

1,2, and 3 are spot on. As for your opening and closing statements,well...
Good luck with that. ALPA will be tied up in bankruptcy court. I am sure many of your brethren at Air tran are beginning to realize how bad you f'&$@k up.
That's why the ice cream dork told you to STFU.

That's right, Kaka! BTW, I'm working on a green pistachio blend just for you! I'll let you know in about 8 hours when it's ready!

 

[texman]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

I think you are wrong!

1. SWA holdings owns AT. SWA can do what ever it wants with AT.

2. M/B is a law that states you have negotiate in a fair and equitable way which SWA/SWAPA/MC has done. Your MEC turned it down.

3. SL9 protected you from furlough, not so much any more.

4. SWA holdings can furlough if they want, again you can not tell a right to work state company how to run a company.

5. SWA GAVE AND MAY CONSIDER ANOTHER FAIR DEAL.

6. If you think this is a cake and eat it too deal for us look in the mirror my friend.

7. SWA is not LEGALLY BOUNDED TO MERGE BOTH OPERATIONS!

Don't think so negative! SWA is loosing money because of the lack of immediate synergies, and ALPA is not helping. So if the secondary company is causing pain finically to the primary one, what would you do as a CEO?

Please quit thinking like a pilot.

 

[Andy]

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

Anything coming out of mediation will be less than what was offered in SL9. Or no agreement will come out of mediation.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

Arbitration? I don't see that happening. If you guys don't agree to something less than SL9, the airlines will be operated under two separate certificates.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

I'm an outsider with no skin in the game. You guys got a very fair offer in SL9. You chose to try for more. You're not going to get more than was offered in SL9; any future offers will be for less.

You need to read the McCaskill Bond Amendment. It specifically states that it applies to two or more carriers that are combined. As in one operating certificate. If they keep the two operations separate, McCaskill Bond is not applicable. http://www.afaonevoice.org/images/mccaskill text.pdf

If you're on a separate certificate, Southwest will turn back the 100 leases and sell off the 38 owned aircraft over time. Do you really think that merging your aircraft and employees will be easier than simply expanding Southwest's operations while shrinking AirTran to zero?
If you'd stop thinking like a pilot (as Texman said) and evaluate the situation, you'd know that the numbers have already been run for both scenarios. It may be a little messy and cost a bit more but the boys in Dallas already have the numbers and plans in hand. They will likely stop working on plan A (integration) and start executing plan B. I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to understand.

 

[General Lee]

This is more than likely the playbook SWA is following and more than likely will continue to follow until this thing is done. The way I see it, is that it will give the Airtan pilots plenty of ammo for a very large class action lawsuit.

1. ALPA MEC votes down the SLI knowing it is not fair and equitable. GK annouces the following Monday that the sky is falling in regards to the economy and plans to fly SW metal in and out of ATL on Airtran routes.

2. Mediation does not produce results and some 717s are parked or sold and furloughs are announced on the Airtran side.

3. After months of waiting the Arbitrated list is put out with seniority gains for Airtran pilots. SWAPA is furious and GK will not have his culture ruined so he continues the separte operations of the two companies. Over the next year and a half Airtran aircraft are slowly sold or parked and Airtan as we know it no longer exists.

I believe if this evidence was to go to court it would show that SWA never intended to give the pilots of Airtran a fair shake. Now i'm not talking about the finacial package that was presented to us i'm talking about a fair and equitable seniority agreement.

But, as OYS has pointed out, what if the other groups, like flight attendants and Mechanics, did accept the Southwest offer, and they wanted to go forward. Would GK keep everything seperate if only one of the groups wanted to go to Arbitration? What would stockholders and board members say about that? Maybe they would tell GK to "eat it?" But, you're right, there has been some legislation (like Bond Mckaskil) that does protect how workers are integrated. This will be fun to watch, but I think the Airtran pilots will probably go to arbitration, and get a heck of a lot better deal than they were offered. That award will be binding. If GK wants to flush everything down the toilet, then that's up to him, and a lot of other people are now counting on him, not just his corndog pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bake]

This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

dam, I love this feature.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

General,

The pilots, flight attendants and mechanics can have separate integration processes.

Do I really need to say more?

 

[texman]

Gen,

You are correct about the other employee groups, but both Pilot groups are leading the other groups. The MX, dispatchers, Fa's are all waiting on us.

 

[General Lee]

Anything coming out of mediation will be less than what was offered in SL9. Or no agreement will come out of mediation.



Arbitration? I don't see that happening. If you guys don't agree to something less than SL9, the airlines will be operated under two separate certificates.



I'm an outsider with no skin in the game. You guys got a very fair offer in SL9. You chose to try for more. You're not going to get more than was offered in SL9; any future offers will be for less.

You need to read the McCaskill Bond Amendment. It specifically states that it applies to two or more carriers that are combined. As in one operating certificate. If they keep the two operations separate, McCaskill Bond is not applicable. http://www.afaonevoice.org/images/mccaskill text.pdf

If you're on a separate certificate, Southwest will turn back the 100 leases and sell off the 38 owned aircraft over time. Do you really think that merging your aircraft and employees will be easier than simply expanding Southwest's operations while shrinking AirTran to zero?
If you'd stop thinking like a pilot (as Texman said) and evaluate the situation, you'd know that the numbers have already been run for both scenarios. It may be a little messy and cost a bit more but the boys in Dallas already have the numbers and plans in hand. They will likely stop working on plan A (integration) and start executing plan B. I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to understand.

What are you smoking? The Airtran guys got hosed. What a crock. The bottom 60% put in the Southwest bottom 20%? Their CEO chose to do this deal, not SWAPA. Just because the SWA contract is superior, doesn't mean the Airtran guys, who had no choice in the matter, have to bow down to SWAPA. The arbitrators will see what EACH airline brings to the table, and then decide how the SLI will go, FAIRLY. Southwest is the bigger airline, and will have better ratios, but the airlines have the same sized planes, and both have similar operations. Even Airtran flies INTL routes, something Southwest pilots haven't learned yet because they are still trying to perfect VNAV and Autothrottles.

Andy, take a look at the recent arbitration awards to see how things worked out, for NWA, Coglan, and Republic/Frontier. If the Airtran guys go to Arbitration, they probably will see better positions on the overall list, and then at that point GK has to decide how long he wants to hold out, and not achieve synergies that will save his company millions.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Andy]

But, as OYS has pointed out, what if the other groups, like flight attendants and Mechanics, did accept the Southwest offer, and they wanted to go forward. Would GK keep everything seperate if only one of the groups wanted to go to Arbitration? What would stockholders and board members say about that? Maybe they would tell GK to "eat it?" But, you're right, there has been some legislation (like Bond Mckaskil) that does protect how workers are integrated. This will be fun to watch, but I think the Airtran pilots will probably go to arbitration, and get a heck of a lot better deal than they were offered. That award will be binding. If GK wants to flush everything down the toilet, then that's up to him, and a lot of other people are now counting on him, not just his corndog pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

If the AirTran pilots don't agree then the rest of AirTran's employees won't even get a chance to integrate. The flight attendants don't even start discussing SLI until the end of this month.

 

[General Lee]

Gen,

You are correct about the other employee groups, but both Pilot groups are leading the other groups. The MX, dispatchers, Fa's are all waiting on us.

Tex,

That doesn't bode well for the pilots, on the SWA side. If the other groups want to merge, then that will put some pressure on GK. The share holders and bankers want this deal to go through, also. Will GK rest this whole deal on the pilots, or just eventually point at an eventual arbitration award and possibly say "sorry guys, deal with it, it's binding."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

If the AirTran pilots don't agree then the rest of AirTran's employees won't even get a chance to integrate. The flight attendants don't even start discussing SLI until the end of this month.

That's funny, supposedly whole departments in ATL have been moved already to Dallas. Are you sure about that?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

The pilots, flight attendants and mechanics can have separate integration processes.

Do I really need to say more?

Exactly. That means the rest of the group merges together, and it would be harder to say NO to the deal, like Frontier. That's what I mean. With just the pilots not integrated, and a possible binding arbitration award floating over their heads, Southwest management COULD feel some heat. That could lead to a scheduling nightmare, and like USAir could lead to inefficiencies that could be costly.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Andy]

What are you smoking? The Airtran guys got hosed. What a crock. The bottom 60% put in the Southwest bottom 20%? Their CEO chose to do this deal, not SWAPA. Just because the SWA contract is superior, doesn't mean the Airtran guys, who had no choice in the matter, have to bow down to SWAPA. The arbitrators will see what EACH airline brings to the table, and then decide how the SLI will go, FAIRLY. Southwest is the bigger airline, and will have better ratios, but the airlines have the same sized planes, and both have similar operations. Even Airtran flies INTL routes, something Southwest pilots haven't learned yet because they are still trying to perfect VNAV and Autothrottles.

Andy, take a look at the recent arbitration awards to see how things worked out, for NWA, Coglan, and Republic/Frontier. If the Airtran guys go to Arbitration, they probably will see better positions on the overall list, and then at that point GK has to decide how long he wants to hold out, and not achieve synergies that will save his company millions.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Still thinking like a pilot. I can't believe that you guys actually think that Southwest's lawyers didn't leave a fallback option available.
Spend a little time looking at past Southwest acquisitions. No arbitration. And it's not going to happen this time either. Two separate operating certificates until AirTran dies off.

As for fair, I think that AirTran's pilots got one helluva good deal offered to them. That's gone now.

 

[Andy]

That's funny, supposedly whole departments in ATL have been moved already to Dallas. Are you sure about that?


Bye Bye---General Lee

I made sure that I read the information on Southwest's flight attendant website before posting it. http://www.twu556.org/

There was a reason why Southwest wanted a pilot SLI first.

 

[FDJ2]

The Airtran pilots won't be bullied and they won't be bought. They will have to be dealt with as equal partners.

Now that it is clear that neither SWAPA or SWA supports pay equity for Airtran pilots, the argument that they will get a windfall because of SWAPA or SWA is a moot point. If the Airtran pilots achieve pay equity it will be because they demanded it and earned it. So much for the pay disparity argument.

Management should never have put their snout in this labor issue, by doing so they have shown their hand and any semblance of fair treatment is now gone.

Their is a process for a fair integration and that process should be respected by all sides.

IMO, the Airtran MEC must make it perfectly clear to SWA management that the success or failure of this merger (save the purchased v. merger line, because it's not relevant) depends on whether or not management can treat each employee equally, regardless of pre-merger status.

I would remind SWA management that the Airtran pilots will not sit idly by and be treated as second class citizens. If they are, SWA will receive a very public and very cold welcome in Atlanta.

The path forward should be clear to all involved, respect the process. Those that fail to respect a process which treats all parties fairly will ultimately reap a bitter harvest.

 

[Andy]

Gen,

You are correct about the other employee groups, but both Pilot groups are leading the other groups. The MX, dispatchers, Fa's are all waiting on us.

This is too hard for GL to understand. He also doesn't understand that with no pilot SLI, there will be no other employee group SLIs because GK will not merge the two compainies into one operating certificate.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

General,

No it wouldn't. Not in the way SWA schedules work. Maybe in a hub and spoke but not a point to point. Every base could be considered its own little airline.

No one could have imagined how exactly the AIP came out. All the mental masturbation on this and every board didn't even come close. The same will happen with an arbitrated list. SWA could lock the AAI pilots out forever. No legislation can keep that from happening. If that is the way AAI pilots want it, then they can have it.

Again, no one can imagine how this will play out. But one thing has been repeated over and over again by SWA's CEO, our culture will not be compromised. It really is AAI's choice.

 

[Sacha]

General,

I can't see the big incentive for any of our other groups to be anxious to integrate. Our flight attendants with their incentives can make some astounding money. If I am not mistaken, our mechanics are close to, if not at the top of the industry pay wise. Gate agents rampers, flt att. Don't have the same issues with upgrade that we do. So why would any of other groups be anxious to integrate? Now I can see these groups on the Airtran side being very much in a hurry for nothing other than the pay and benefits.
As an aside, I have asked this very question to some of our F/A's and a few Mx and their response is a blasé shrug of the shoulders and a "who cares" attitude because they all say it won't bring any improvements on their side. So I guess I might disagree with your belief that all the other groups on our side are waiting for us to get on with it.

 

[texman]

Tex,

That doesn't bode well for the pilots, on the SWA side. If the other groups want to merge, then that will put some pressure on GK. The share holders and bankers want this deal to go through, also. Will GK rest this whole deal on the pilots, or just eventually point at an eventual arbitration award and possibly say "sorry guys, deal with it, it's binding."


Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually the Mx guy's have told each other to F off, and the Dispatchers are starting to get heated too. I bet you love that. Don't know about the FA's, but I will say the whole employee group back's the Pilot's. Once they heard the deal was turned down, and realized what was in the deal, they where upset. Some OPS agents and ground people in Hou and Dal where asking questions why? My friend told them that they want benefits and seniority too. So some 20-30 year people where, ''we built this place and paid our dues WTF". Just only stating facts. I bet this brings a smile to your face though. Plus Binding is not binding.

One another note I can understand the whole seniority thing with AT, they will still get everything else, why not shoot for the moon. I would.

 

[Sacha]

The Airtran pilots won't be bullied and they won't be bought. They will have to be dealt with as equal partners.

Now that it is clear that neither SWAPA or SWA supports pay equity for Airtran pilots, the argument that they will get a windfall because of SWAPA or SWA is a moot point. If the Airtran pilots achieve pay equity it will be because they demanded it and earned it. So much for the pay disparity argument.

Management should never have put their snout in this labor issue, by doing so they have shown their hand and any semblance of fair treatment is now gone.

Their is a process for a fair integration and that process should be respected by all sides.

IMO, the Airtran MEC must make it perfectly clear to SWA management that the success or failure of this merger (save the purchased v. merger line, because it's not relevant) depends on whether or not management can treat each employee equally, regardless of pre-merger status.

I would remind SWA management that the Airtran pilots will not sit idly by and be treated as second class citizens. If they are, SWA will receive a very public and very cold welcome in Atlanta.

The path forward should be clear to all involved, respect the process. Those that fail to respect a process which treats all parties fairly will ultimately reap a bitter harvest.

I loved your second to last paragraph. At Eastern, we assured Frank Lorenzo and Co. if he didn't play fair, the people of the cities of Atlanta, Miami, New York, and Boston would rise up with us and refuse to buy tickets on Continental and we would drive Continental out of business. Remember, Eastern, "The Wings of Man" had been dominant in these cities with the exception of ATL, for over 60 years. The day we went on strike, the boys over at Delta added numerous extra flights. The AJC wrote some articles and within 8 weeks or so, you could hear crickets chirping and our beloved citizens of all our cities were more concerned with the fact that the dork Michael Dukakis might become President. So spare me the melodrama about the people of Atlanta giving a crap. They don't. Oh, I almost forgot. 22 years later, Continental is still in business........