When is the PinnaColaba list effective?

[Flyer1015]

Anyone know? Bloch didn't mention an effective date. And when will we get our single operating certificate? Pinnacle is far too shortstaffed to allow any Colgan/Mesaba upgrades. Kinda impossible when they are cancelling sim training for current Pinnacle pilots as a result of a lack of instructors. How long will this company operational fence last?

 

[CoATP]

Colgan/Mesaba will get the SOC. 9E already has its certificate for 200/900. So it's just when the asset transfer (oops "merger") of the jets from mesaba happens.

 

[bri5150]

O. Filling of Vacancies 1. A Pilot who holds an award for a Position as of February 18, 2011 shall continue to hold such awarded Position. Any Vacancy, Realignment, or Reduction Notice that closes prior to the announcement of the ISL will be awarded in accordance with the prior CBA as applied to the individual Airline. If the ISL is announced prior to the close of a notice, then that award will be in accordance with the JCBA as applied to all Airlines, collectively, and Pilots will be given at least ten (10) days to bid on any such notice utilizing the form described in paragraph O.4., below.


I am surprised you didn't see this in LOA 2 hiding just above your almighty DOH paragraph.

p.s. I am offended you didn't capitalize the "Mesaba" portion of Pinnacolaba, but you capitalized the "Colgan" part. :laugh:

 

[Flyer1015]

I am surprised you didn't see this in LOA 2 hiding just above your almighty DOH paragraph.

Do you honestly think on the next 9E vacancy they're going to have the manpower to put a Colgan or an XJ pilot through Pinnacle indoc - 1 week, systems 2 weeks, GFS - 1week, sims - 2 weeks to 3+ months, depends, type ride, OE, fed ride, etc. I got a wake up call for ya: we don't have the manpower to do any of that. Heck, the last vacancy that closed before the ISL doesn't even have upgrade classes until end August/early September.

 

[Flyer1015]

Colgan/Mesaba will get the SOC. 9E already has its certificate for 200/900. So it's just when the asset transfer (oops "merger") of the jets from mesaba happens.

Bingo. That's what I'm thinking. Until all RJs from Mesaba come to Pinnacle, 9e management will probably argue we are not a single operating certificate, therefore, ISL isn't effective yet. I just don't see 9E management allowing the plethora of movement instantly on the next vacancy.

 

[bri5150]

Do you honestly think on the next 9E vacancy they're going to have the manpower to put a Colgan or an XJ pilot through Pinnacle indoc - 1 week, systems 2 weeks, GFS - 1week, sims - 2 weeks to 3+ months, depends, type ride, OE, fed ride, etc. I got a wake up call for ya: we don't have the manpower to do any of that. Heck, the last vacancy that closed before the ISL doesn't even have upgrade classes until end August/early September.

It doesn't matter if they have the manpower or not. The next vacancies are open to all. It's in the contract they agreed to. If Mesaba's minimum isn't met before they open it to Colgan/Pinnacle then there will be issues.

 

[Flyer1015]

It doesn't matter if they have the manpower or not. The next vacancies are open to all. It's in the contract they agreed to. If Mesaba's minimum isn't met before they open it to Colgan/Pinnacle then there will be issues.

bri, what is the effective date of that ISL award? I don't see one. Only thing I see is a footnote that alludes to taking care of the XJ furloughee list issue (listed twice) before achieving single operating certificate. Until you can prove this ISL is effective immediately, I don't see the issues. The planes from XJ haven't even been moved to Pinnacle, nor have any XJ guys received any Pinnacle training. Until you're Pinnaclized, I don't see that movement starting yet.

 

[bri5150]

Has the ISL been announced?

 

[xjhawk]

so what you are saying is that the SLI is not effective. good, lets start over. If this sli followed alpa merger policy it would not have 2001 hires behind 2007/8 hires. un f'ing believable

 

[Flyer1015]

Has the ISL been announced?

"Announced" and "effective" aren't necessarily the same thing. Besides, it's amazing how quickly you want your guys to jump over to the 9E side of things before a single XJ plane is even moved here.

 

[Flyer1015]

so what you are saying is that the SLI is not effective. good, lets start over. If this sli followed alpa merger policy it would not have 2001 hires behind 2007/8 hires. un f'ing believable

Did you read read the conditions? There is a 60-day window for our merger committee members to address potential issues with this list. Some of that may include the MOU pilots and Pinnacle's extremel low fenced protections of 541 Captain slots that were taken at a time when our staffing was low and Pinnale had not hired/upgraded. I can see this being disputed, and we have 60 days for this to happen.

I wouldn't sing kumbaya just yet. This list stuff isn't over.

 

[Flyer1015]

so what you are saying is that the SLI is not effective. good, lets start over. If this sli followed alpa merger policy it would not have 2001 hires behind 2007/8 hires. un f'ing believable

I don't see any DOHs on the ISL. At what point exactly did this happen? Is this at group 3?

 

[higney85]

I am *personally* expecting a memo from mgmt this week on their plans going forward in regards to this list. There is movement of A/C and I know they have been working on the "training" to bring it all together. As I understand things it's a joint process among all three groups (no bragging points for any group) to get this process streamlined, done, and progressing along. I know 9E is short and from the sounds of it every regional is short currently.

 

[Flyer1015]

I am *personally* expecting a memo from mgmt this week on their plans going forward in regards to this list. There is movement of A/C and I know they have been working on the "training" to bring it all together. As I understand things it's a joint process among all three groups (no bragging points for any group) to get this process streamlined, done, and progressing along. I know 9E is short and from the sounds of it every regional is short currently.

We were short even after Summer 2008 when stopped hiring/upgrading. We didn't do a thing until Summer 2010, and are now dearly paying for that in terms of staffing ratio fences. Screw our incompetent management! We're gonna ultimately pay that price, not them.

 

[bri5150]

"Announced" and "effective" aren't necessarily the same thing. Besides, it's amazing how quickly you want your guys to jump over to the 9E side of things before a single XJ plane is even moved here.

Funny how the section you want to use in the LOA is cut and dry, but the other part that would be detrimental to you isn't. I don't see how you can read that paragraph and say anything other than the vacancies are open to all after the SLI is "announced". I am not saying the company can do it right now, but if they can't then something has to be worked out because they will be in breach of contract. They had 4 months to figure it out. you are right, announced and effective aren't the same. That's why the paragraph is saying that the effective date is when it is announced.

 

[mesaba13]

FLYER-your management is no good , staffing is bad? I thought you guys brought everything to the table and your career expectation was rosey?

 

[Flyer1015]

Funny how the section you want to use in the LOA is cut and dry, but the other part that would be detrimental to you isn't. I don't see how you can read that paragraph and say anything other than the vacancies are open to all after the SLI is "announced". I am not saying the company can do it right now, but if they can't then something has to be worked out because they will be in breach of contract. They had 4 months to figure it out. you are right, announced and effective aren't the same. That's why the paragraph is saying that the effective date is when it is announced.

Well, that "cut and dry" section is something your union disputed to the end, way after hearings were closed. Nothing can be 'worked out.' There is no secret about this. It would take far more manpower and time at this moment to upgrade a XJ or 9L FO at Pinnacle than a Pinnacle FO. It's still 3 separate companies, and if you come here tomorrow, you're gonna be treated like a newhire as far as initial training goes (indoc, systems, etc). In most arbitrated lists involving two or more merged airlines, movement across certificates isn't instant. Think about it, if they had a vacancy for upgrades and for FOs, you'd have tons of pilots, across all 3 certificates, want to go to all different airplanes and seats. Many prop FOs want the jet FOs for higher pay, some want to upgrade onto the jets, and others want a FO-FO move. That is a whole lot of training cycles at a time we are too shortstaffed. Not only on the line (pulling a pilot out from the line to train will hurt enough), but we are short in the training section. And no one, except Pinnacle instructors and checkairman, can train a XJ or Colgan pilot to learn the Pinnacle way.

This is going to take time. As Higney85 mentioned, I expect to see a management response, and that is what will happen.

 

[Flyer1015]

FLYER-your management is no good , staffing is bad? I thought you guys brought everything to the table and your career expectation was rosey?

It was rosey. For us. Not to bring two entirely different airlines, two entirely different pilot groups, and then thrown into our training department. Our training department can barely handle us, but they do. Add 2 more airlines into that mix? No way. And many instructors/checkairmen have been hired at FDX and have left or are just waiting for a class date.

 

[jumppilot1000]

Vacancy 11-07 is out

 

[bri5150]

Well, that "cut and dry" section is something your union disputed to the end, way after hearings were closed. Nothing can be 'worked out.' There is no secret about this. It would take far more manpower and time at this moment to upgrade a XJ or 9L FO at Pinnacle than a Pinnacle FO. It's still 3 separate companies, and if you come here tomorrow, you're gonna be treated like a newhire as far as initial training goes (indoc, systems, etc). In most arbitrated lists involving two or more merged airlines, movement across certificates isn't instant. Think about it, if they had a vacancy for upgrades and for FOs, you'd have tons of pilots, across all 3 certificates, want to go to all different airplanes and seats. Many prop FOs want the jet FOs for higher pay, some want to upgrade onto the jets, and others want a FO-FO move. That is a whole lot of training cycles at a time we are too shortstaffed. Not only on the line (pulling a pilot out from the line to train will hurt enough), but we are short in the training section. And no one, except Pinnacle instructors and checkairman, can train a XJ or Colgan pilot to learn the Pinnacle way.

This is going to take time. As Higney85 mentioned, I expect to see a management response, and that is what will happen.

Seriously, your question was when does the list become effective. The answer is in that paragraph I quoted for you. Vacancies are open after the ISL is "announced". It's been announced, so the vacancies are open. If management can't do that, then they will have to compensate (money, days off, make a deal with ALPA) those Mesaba pilots that aren't awarded the 200 when the we haven't met our minimum as per the ISL. No wonder things never got done before the merger with you guys. You just roll over and say it can't be done so that's it. There is a Colgan vacancy on mymesaba already. Maybe they have something figured out. Maybe not. I guess we'll see.

 

[Flyer1015]

Vacancy 11-07 is out

Yaaay! Prop FO openings only. Pay cut, here I come.

 

[bri5150]

Yaaay! Prop FO openings only. Pay cut, here I come.

Give me a break.

 

[Flyer1015]

Give me a break.

Jet FO to prop FO is a paycut. Anyway, this is no surprise. Mesaba and Colgan had already been doing their own hiring/training. Mesaba's website announced hiring for the Colgan side of things a lil while ago.

 

[DoinTime]

Seriously, your question was when does the list become effective. The answer is in that paragraph I quoted for you. Vacancies are open after the ISL is "announced". It's been announced, so the vacancies are open. If management can't do that, then they will have to compensate (money, days off, make a deal with ALPA) those Mesaba pilots that aren't awarded the 200 when the we haven't met our minimum as per the ISL. No wonder things never got done before the merger with you guys. You just roll over and say it can't be done so that's it. There is a Colgan vacancy on mymesaba already. Maybe they have something figured out. Maybe not. I guess we'll see.

Practically speaking there is no ISL until the list has been presented to the company. ALPA will not present the list until all parties have had a chance to review the award and get answers to any questions or concerns. The protocol agreement had a 60 day window to resolve these issues. When that process is over, ALPA will "announce" the list.

 

[CptMurf]

Practically speaking there is no ISL until the list has been presented to the company. ALPA will not present the list until all parties have had a chance to review the award and get answers to any questions or concerns. The protocol agreement had a 60 day window to resolve these issues. When that process is over, ALPA will "announce" the list.

Yet the protocol agreement also states that the ISL is in affect for vacancies when it is announced. You can't have it both ways. I would say it is in effect. If Mgmt. cannot meet training, the the vacancy should be delayed, or the pilots held under the bypass provisions for up to 90 days. Training may not be that much, especially for those that just need requal, differences, or 9E flows/calls. That training could be completed in days.

 

[bri5150]

Jet FO to prop FO is a paycut. Anyway, this is no surprise. Mesaba and Colgan had already been doing their own hiring/training. Mesaba's website announced hiring for the Colgan side of things a lil while ago.

With this vacancy, there is no way, no matter where you are, that you would be displaced. The only way you could be displaced in the near future is if you were near the bottom of the 9E list and a Saab fo (which the category was stapled behind you) which is senior to you is displaced by a realignment. Besides, you already got a 25% (based on the average) pay raise in Feb, so you should still be net ahead, right? Again, give me a break.

edit: Wait, you have another thread started about not having 250 hours PIC to get your ATP. It doesn't sound like you are gearing up for a pay cut.

 

[DoinTime]

Yet the protocol agreement also states that the ISL is in affect for vacancies when it is announced. You can't have it both ways. I would say it is in effect. If Mgmt. cannot meet training, the the vacancy should be delayed, or the pilots held under the bypass provisions for up to 90 days. Training may not be that much, especially for those that just need requal, differences, or 9E flows/calls. That training could be completed in days.

You've convinced yourself that you know the specific definition of "announced" and who is able to do the announcing. I'm not sold on the idea that the list has been announced yet.

I think the transition from Mesaba jet to pinnacle jet is about a 3 week program plus OE.

 

[Flyer1015]

With this vacancy, there is no way, no matter where you are, that you would be displaced. The only way you could be displaced in the near future is if you were near the bottom of the 9E list and a Saab fo (which the category was stapled behind you) which is senior to you is displaced by a realignment. Besides, you already got a 25% (based on the average) pay raise in Feb, so you should still be net ahead, right? Again, give me a break.

edit: Wait, you have another thread started about not having 250 hours PIC to get your ATP. It doesn't sound like you are gearing up for a pay cut.

I meant jet FO to prop FO. I have no interest in upgrading into a prop. There's no way I want to upgrade into an airplane I have zero time, at an unfamiliar base, with a brand new green FO. Maybe if I already had my ATP, I might go for it when fence allows. But I do not want my first type ride to be in a completely unfamiliar airplane I've never flown before.

And as for displacements, I know this vacancy won't cause displacements. However, my fear is next year when the Saabs are parked, the resulting reductions will mean Mesaba Saab Captains will bid Jet Captains, and because it's not a result of the SLI, instead, it's a result of the reductions. So, those guys (like you? Seven?) will bid jet Captain positions and you will hold whatever seniority allows you. Because Pinnacle has only 541 fenced protections, those 541 positions existed in Summer 2010 when we hadn't upgraded for 2 years. Today we have 600+ CRJ-200 Captains. Worse case scenario is all the bottom new Captain upgrades at Pinnacle will be forced out of the left seat, and into the right seat of the RJ. They can't go to the Q because of the fence. We can lose all our Captain seats on the -200 all the way to a minimum of just 541 slots. I think the future sucks more for junior Pinnacle Captains than it does for Mesaba Saab Captains. That having been said bri, give me a break.

 

[CptMurf]

You've convinced yourself that you know the specific definition of "announced" and who is able to do the announcing. I'm not sold on the idea that the list has been announced yet.

I think the transition from Mesaba jet to pinnacle jet is about a 3 week program plus OE.

Either way, time will tell. Those with a chance to move/upgrade should prepare their pref bids accordingly.

I only know what you all have said about 9E training. At XJ, a requal or differences would be done in about 4 days.

 

[DoinTime]

I only know what you all have said about 9E training. At XJ, a requal or differences would be done in about 4 days.

This isn't requal or differences training. You will be qualifying under a new training program for a different airline that is overseen by a different FSDO. This is no different that you quitting Mesaba and going to work for another airline. Coincidentally, that's what you'll be doing. Welcome to Pinnacle!