Horizon

[pipejockey]

Whats up with this? Horizon has CRJ 700's, Alaska needs CRJ 700 feed, so what do they do? Horizon gives Skypest the 700's?? Same old regional airline industry I guess. And our horrid US labor laws that allow things like this to happen. So this is the thanks the Horizon pilots get for the POS they signed in December! The POS contract that reduces the company match on the 401K and contains absolutely NO pay increase for the life of the contract. And don't think that "baseball style arbitration" for years 2/3 and 4/5 are going to result in any pay increases for them when they are the highest paid in the industry. And I use the term "highest paid" loosely. It's like saying the Dog sh*t tases better than the Monkey sh*t!!

What an industry! uke:

 

[johnpeace]

Yeah, they should pass some laws forcing airlines to run their businesses for the benefit of the pilots who work there.

That'd be GREAT.

 

[777forever]

Whats up with this? Horizon has CRJ 700's, Alaska needs CRJ 700 feed, so what do they do? Horizon gives Skypest the 700's?? Same old regional airline industry I guess. And our horrid US labor laws that allow things like this to happen. So this is the thanks the Horizon pilots get for the POS they signed in December! The POS contract that reduces the company match on the 401K and contains absolutely NO pay increase for the life of the contract. And don't think that "baseball style arbitration" for years 2/3 and 4/5 are going to result in any pay increases for them when they are the highest paid in the industry. And I use the term "highest paid" loosely. It's like saying the Dog sh*t tases better than the Monkey sh*t!!

What an industry! uke:

da da da da

 

[OCP]

Skywest can run CRJ (anything) cheaper than most because of their size. They can't however run any turboprop other than a Brasilia. They have NO Dash 8 anything. This may bite them in the a$$ later, who knows. They also have NO (big) ERJ. Maybe bad.

 

[pipejockey]

Yeah, they should pass some laws forcing airlines to run their businesses for the benefit of the pilots who work there.

That'd be GREAT.

No! Not the pilots who only work there but pilots everywhere! What happens at Horizon could happen anywhere. I'm sure the skypest pilots would be raising holy hell if 6 of their planes were being "sold" to another company to fly feed for Delta! Anyone who isn't upset about this truly doesn't understand that the regionals will never be a stable or viable career for any pilot. And due to 10 years of stagnation at the major airlines which continues, many folks will be stuck at the regionals for their entire careers. What a miserable reality. The airline industry has had their way and saved billions by transferring flying to the puke regionals and eliminating decent pilot jobs putting mainline pilots out of work. How about splitting the difference with the employees of the regionals that struggle just to maintain the basic necessities of life.

 

[say again]

This has been happening for years. It's not shocking anymore...it's just plain pathetic. What a crappy industry, and one of the many reasons I will never work for another regional.

 

[mrnolmts]

From what I understand, just about the only thing that will change is the pilots and flight attendants. Everything else will stay the same, and the passengers won't notice anything different: It'll be Horizon Airplanes (6XXQX), handled by Horizon Ground Crew, stocked by Horizon Food and Beverage, serving Horizon's unique offering of free beer and wine, etc etc. Sad.

 

[NWaviator]

I think that it will be quite uncomfortable for the SkyWest pilots doing that flying being surrounded by QX Employees. Just a hunch....

 

[EngineOut]

I think that it will be quite uncomfortable for the SkyWest pilots doing that flying being surrounded by QX Employees. Just a hunch....

Give me a break. Horizon has been saying for years that they want to get rid of the jets.

Do you think SkyWest pilots will be making you feel uncomfortable when you're flying the Q for United in DEN, LAX, and SFO?

It's the nature of the biz. We're all screwing someone on one side and getting screwed on the other.

 

[NWaviator]

Just stating a fact. One group is taking jobs from another group and still that one group will be working with the first group. Are you thinking that it is going to be flowers and hugs?
And yes, if QX does have that happen then yes I expect the same result.
Your right, it is the industry. Just like the SkyWest pilot in the Van the other day that was talking about how happy he was getting 8 RJ from QX to fly for Delta and all of the growth that he project flying for AS. He made a lot of friends saying that to a captain that is taking a 15% paycut to go the the Q and the FO that will be adding years to his upgrade.

 

[johnpeace]

Just like the SkyWest pilot in the Van the other day that was talking about how happy he was getting 8 RJ from QX to fly for Delta and all of the growth that he project flying for AS. He made a lot of friends saying that to a captain that is taking a 15% paycut to go the the Q and the FO that will be adding years to his upgrade.

I'll remember to always be glum about growth at my airline advancing me through my career.

 

[Erlanger]

Just stating a fact. One group is taking jobs from another group and still that one group will be working with the first group. Are you thinking that it is going to be flowers and hugs?
And yes, if QX does have that happen then yes I expect the same result.
Your right, it is the industry. Just like the SkyWest pilot in the Van the other day that was talking about how happy he was getting 8 RJ from QX to fly for Delta and all of the growth that he project flying for AS. He made a lot of friends saying that to a captain that is taking a 15% paycut to go the the Q and the FO that will be adding years to his upgrade.

I say bullsh!t to your made up freaking story. That's one of the most common story lines on FI... Gee, once upon a time ..... in a van ride with a crew from...

 

[NWaviator]

Ok John - at the cost of others your airline will grown and do it for less. Great attitude. Let's bring the bar down even more.

It happened in the van, I was there. But I can understand you not believing me.

 

[Hamburger]

Skywest can run CRJ (anything) cheaper than most because of their........

Non-Union pay and work rules.

You can't be the lowest bidder forever. Mesa is coming for your contracts, and they've got a better price point. It's Horizon Planes and Horizon routes. Skywest is supplying nothing but pilots.

Sooner or later Jerry is going to decide YOU are overpaid.......On that day, you'll have nothing to say but: "Yessa Massa, Ima overpaid! Thank you for overpaying me all these years. Please cut MY pay Massa, yousea gotta buy another vacation house! Don't worry about MY family, massa!"

Do you want to be the equivalent of border-jumping, undercutting, job thief; stealing work from people who fought and earned a decent wage, or do you want to stand up and fight and earn a decent wage for yourself?

That's what it boils down to. Don't bother trying to tell yourself anything different. There are decent paying jobs and there are those who undercut decent paying jobs. Black and White.

 

[i fly boxes]

you guys should all dress up as eskimos and just stare at the skywest pilots as they walk to the plane for the first time.

 

[CX880]

Non-Union pay and work rules.

You can't be the lowest bidder forever. Mesa is coming for your contracts, and they've got a better price point. It's Horizon Planes and Horizon routes. Skywest is supplying nothing but pilots.

Sooner or later Jerry is going to decide YOU are overpaid.......On that day, you'll have nothing to say but: "Yessa Massa, Ima overpaid! Thank you for overpaying me all these years. Please cut MY pay Massa, yousea gotta buy another vacation house! Don't worry about MY family, massa!"

Do you want to be the equivalent of border-jumping, undercutting, job thief; stealing work from people who fought and earned a decent wage, or do you want to stand up and fight and earn a decent wage for yourself?
.

From what I understand skywest bought those planes. Therefore they aren't Horizon planes anymore. I think that's how things work when you buy things, you become the new owner. It's called diversification, obviously Alaska doesn't want to be a one regional partner anymore. If you want stability then you should quit flying for the regionals.....

 

[XPOO]

From what I understand skywest bought those planes. Therefore they aren't Horizon planes anymore. I think that's how things work when you buy things, you become the new owner. It's called diversification, obviously Alaska doesn't want to be a one regional partner anymore. If you want stability then you should quit flying for the regionals.....

Bingo!

 

[ASABound]

John peace is an idiot and has no clue of what is happening in this industry. Is he probably under some member of mgmt's desk ....... If u know what I mean. More importantly he isn't representative of the feelings of the other 99% of asa/xjt pilots. Get a life John......

 

[Fubijaakr]

From what I understand skywest bought those planes. Therefore they aren't Horizon planes anymore......

Incorrect. The last 7 CRJs are being LEASED from AAG, under AAG operational control and flying AAG routes using outsourced Skywest non-Union pilots.

That's why AAG pilots in general and QX pilots in particular are upset.

 

[johnpeace]

John peace is an idiot and has no clue of what is happening in this industry. Is he probably under some member of mgmt's desk ....... If u know what I mean. More importantly he isn't representative of the feelings of the other 99% of asa/xjt pilots. Get a life John......

On the contrary...I just think it's stupid for pilots to be finger-pointing at each other as if WE have anything to do with it.

Bad form to gloat over someone else's loss, OK...fair enough. But the Skywest guy on the van didn't have anything to do with it.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Incorrect. The last 7 CRJs are being LEASED from AAG, under AAG operational control and flying AAG routes using outsourced Skywest non-Union pilots.

That's why AAG pilots in general and QX pilots in particular are upset.

Stange...I just did a registation search on the aircraft and am showing Wells Fargo as the owner of those planes now... Im pretty sure SkyWest will have operational control of those planes!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Alright, I should have said "subleased" from AAG and AAG will have operational control of the jets. The prospective schedule has been published.

 

[propsarebest]

AAG NEVER owned the CRJ-700's (same with the Q400). They were originally leased from CIT Aerospace. A few years ago, CIT sold a bunch of assets to WF, including a ton of airplanes. AAG cannot maintain operational control over an airplane that they (AS or QX) don't operate. Skywest flies a schedule according to whomever they contract with. The final movement of the airplane lies totally with Skywest.

 

[pipejockey]

From what I understand skywest bought those planes. Therefore they aren't Horizon planes anymore. I think that's how things work when you buy things, you become the new owner. It's called diversification, obviously Alaska doesn't want to be a one regional partner anymore. If you want stability then you should quit flying for the regionals.....

Brilliant! So why didn't anybody else think of that? Everyone should just go to the Major Airlines where the only other airline jobs exist, plus relish in all that stability.

Oh, that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES because the regionals are flying more and more and larger and larger planes, nor will there ever be any stability at the major airlines either.

 

[mrnolmts]

AAG NEVER owned the CRJ-700's (same with the Q400). They were originally leased from CIT Aerospace. A few years ago, CIT sold a bunch of assets to WF, including a ton of airplanes. AAG cannot maintain operational control over an airplane that they (AS or QX) don't operate. Skywest flies a schedule according to whomever they contract with. The final movement of the airplane lies totally with Skywest.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but every Q400 from 415 on is owned by Horizon Air Industries, and so is 618 and 619. Now, AAG is Horizon as Horizon is AAG, so I guess you can argue that AAG owns the airplanes. The notion that Alaska owns Horizon or that Alaska owns those airplanes is, at least on paper, incorrect. The RJ's are sub-leased to Skywest. I would assume that Skywest have operational control over them, unless there is something in the CPA that says otherwise. However, given the fact that they are sub-leased indicates to me that AAG has the ultimate financial responsibility with regard to the registered owner, whether it be Wells Fargo or some other entity.

 

[Erlanger]

One more interesting thing that may say who owns the airplanes is that Skywest planes don't have dual FMS's. Skywest has decided to keep the dual FMS system in the airplanes. Skywest likes consistancy in it's fleet but will be keeping the FMs setup in the Horizon planes. Whenever Skywest had gotten planes from other regionals, Skywest has always spent the money and reconfigured those planes from whatever differences they are to match the other Skywest planes. I would think that if the airplanes were truly going to be Skywest planes they would configure these planes to be like the rest of the fleet.

 

[Hamburger]

On the contrary...I just think it's stupid for pilots to be finger-pointing at each other as if WE have anything to do with it.

Bad form to gloat over someone else's loss, OK...fair enough. But the Skywest guy on the van didn't have anything to do with it.

Absolutely true.
And when Jerry gives the keys to "his" plane to some Guatemalan pilot who flies the same routes he flew last week in the same plane for 50 pesos a day, he may start to get it.
Healthy competition is great, but I'd love to hear any of you tell us all how great it is that American Manufacturing moving to China is a good thing.

What's it going to be? You either want a good job with good pay and understand that illegals and outsourcing jobs hurts Americans or you want to be the guy that the jobs are outsourced to.

Oh, that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES because the regionals are flying more and more and larger and larger planes, nor will there ever be any stability at the major airlines either.

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

 

[XPOO]

One more interesting thing that may say who owns the airplanes is that Skywest planes don't have dual FMS's. Skywest has decided to keep the dual FMS system in the airplanes. Skywest likes consistancy in it's fleet but will be keeping the FMs setup in the Horizon planes. Whenever Skywest had gotten planes from other regionals, Skywest has always spent the money and reconfigured those planes from whatever differences they are to match the other Skywest planes. I would think that if the airplanes were truly going to be Skywest planes they would configure these planes to be like the rest of the fleet.

This is only somewhat true, aircraft with single GPS installations:

340CA, 367CA, 368CA, 668CA, 609SK, 611SK, 613SK, 614SK

The other 75 CRJ7s all have dual GPS

 

[Fubijaakr]

And when Jerry gives the keys to "his" plane to some Guatemalan pilot who flies the same routes he flew last week in the same plane for 50 pesos a day, he may start to get it....

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but every Q400 from 415 on is owned by Horizon Air Industries, and so is 618 and 619. Now, AAG is Horizon as Horizon is AAG, so I guess you can argue that AAG owns the airplanes.... The RJ's are sub-leased to Skywest. I would assume that Skywest have operational control over them, unless there is something in the CPA that says otherwise. However, given the fact that they are sub-leased indicates to me that AAG has the ultimate financial responsibility with regard to the registered owner, whether it be Wells Fargo or some other entity.

Thank you. You expressed it better than I did. When I refer to AAG, I refer to QX and AS under one umbrella as independent entities.

 

[pipejockey]

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

Was there any reason to swear at me? I guess people aren't reading my posts accurately because I can say the word "white" and everyone will be adamant that I just said "black". I NEVER EVER said the regionals were stable. I HAVE ALWAYS said that if you are flying a plane all painted up in United colors (whatever the h*ll that is these days) or are flying a plane in Continental colors (again, whatever the h*ll that is these days) or a plane in Delta colors, or a plane in American colors, you ought to d*mn well be employed by the airline whose name is painted on the side. But with the lack of unity among ALL airline pilots and our prehistoric and anti-labor business laws we have in this country, we have a bunch of bottom feeders doing 53% of the US domestic flying. And management wants to put more 90 seaters and now the new C series on regional property.

And where are all these jobs at mainline. Id love to know how many new jobs have actually become available at mainline since 9-11-01 that haven't since been furloughed and how many became available at the puke regionals? There just aren't enough jobs at mainline for all the rj folks that want to be there.