Horizon

[homerjdispatch]

Incorrect. The last 7 CRJs are being LEASED from AAG, under AAG operational control and flying AAG routes using outsourced Skywest non-Union pilots.

That's why AAG pilots in general and QX pilots in particular are upset.

Stange...I just did a registation search on the aircraft and am showing Wells Fargo as the owner of those planes now... Im pretty sure SkyWest will have operational control of those planes!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Alright, I should have said "subleased" from AAG and AAG will have operational control of the jets. The prospective schedule has been published.

 

[propsarebest]

AAG NEVER owned the CRJ-700's (same with the Q400). They were originally leased from CIT Aerospace. A few years ago, CIT sold a bunch of assets to WF, including a ton of airplanes. AAG cannot maintain operational control over an airplane that they (AS or QX) don't operate. Skywest flies a schedule according to whomever they contract with. The final movement of the airplane lies totally with Skywest.

 

[pipejockey]

From what I understand skywest bought those planes. Therefore they aren't Horizon planes anymore. I think that's how things work when you buy things, you become the new owner. It's called diversification, obviously Alaska doesn't want to be a one regional partner anymore. If you want stability then you should quit flying for the regionals.....

Brilliant! So why didn't anybody else think of that? Everyone should just go to the Major Airlines where the only other airline jobs exist, plus relish in all that stability.

Oh, that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES because the regionals are flying more and more and larger and larger planes, nor will there ever be any stability at the major airlines either.

 

[mrnolmts]

AAG NEVER owned the CRJ-700's (same with the Q400). They were originally leased from CIT Aerospace. A few years ago, CIT sold a bunch of assets to WF, including a ton of airplanes. AAG cannot maintain operational control over an airplane that they (AS or QX) don't operate. Skywest flies a schedule according to whomever they contract with. The final movement of the airplane lies totally with Skywest.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but every Q400 from 415 on is owned by Horizon Air Industries, and so is 618 and 619. Now, AAG is Horizon as Horizon is AAG, so I guess you can argue that AAG owns the airplanes. The notion that Alaska owns Horizon or that Alaska owns those airplanes is, at least on paper, incorrect. The RJ's are sub-leased to Skywest. I would assume that Skywest have operational control over them, unless there is something in the CPA that says otherwise. However, given the fact that they are sub-leased indicates to me that AAG has the ultimate financial responsibility with regard to the registered owner, whether it be Wells Fargo or some other entity.

 

[Erlanger]

One more interesting thing that may say who owns the airplanes is that Skywest planes don't have dual FMS's. Skywest has decided to keep the dual FMS system in the airplanes. Skywest likes consistancy in it's fleet but will be keeping the FMs setup in the Horizon planes. Whenever Skywest had gotten planes from other regionals, Skywest has always spent the money and reconfigured those planes from whatever differences they are to match the other Skywest planes. I would think that if the airplanes were truly going to be Skywest planes they would configure these planes to be like the rest of the fleet.

 

[Hamburger]

On the contrary...I just think it's stupid for pilots to be finger-pointing at each other as if WE have anything to do with it.

Bad form to gloat over someone else's loss, OK...fair enough. But the Skywest guy on the van didn't have anything to do with it.

Absolutely true.
And when Jerry gives the keys to "his" plane to some Guatemalan pilot who flies the same routes he flew last week in the same plane for 50 pesos a day, he may start to get it.
Healthy competition is great, but I'd love to hear any of you tell us all how great it is that American Manufacturing moving to China is a good thing.

What's it going to be? You either want a good job with good pay and understand that illegals and outsourcing jobs hurts Americans or you want to be the guy that the jobs are outsourced to.

Oh, that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES because the regionals are flying more and more and larger and larger planes, nor will there ever be any stability at the major airlines either.

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

 

[XPOO]

One more interesting thing that may say who owns the airplanes is that Skywest planes don't have dual FMS's. Skywest has decided to keep the dual FMS system in the airplanes. Skywest likes consistancy in it's fleet but will be keeping the FMs setup in the Horizon planes. Whenever Skywest had gotten planes from other regionals, Skywest has always spent the money and reconfigured those planes from whatever differences they are to match the other Skywest planes. I would think that if the airplanes were truly going to be Skywest planes they would configure these planes to be like the rest of the fleet.

This is only somewhat true, aircraft with single GPS installations:

340CA, 367CA, 368CA, 668CA, 609SK, 611SK, 613SK, 614SK

The other 75 CRJ7s all have dual GPS

 

[Fubijaakr]

And when Jerry gives the keys to "his" plane to some Guatemalan pilot who flies the same routes he flew last week in the same plane for 50 pesos a day, he may start to get it....

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but every Q400 from 415 on is owned by Horizon Air Industries, and so is 618 and 619. Now, AAG is Horizon as Horizon is AAG, so I guess you can argue that AAG owns the airplanes.... The RJ's are sub-leased to Skywest. I would assume that Skywest have operational control over them, unless there is something in the CPA that says otherwise. However, given the fact that they are sub-leased indicates to me that AAG has the ultimate financial responsibility with regard to the registered owner, whether it be Wells Fargo or some other entity.

Thank you. You expressed it better than I did. When I refer to AAG, I refer to QX and AS under one umbrella as independent entities.

 

[pipejockey]

Guess what, dip********************. There are jobs at Major airlines and if you think there is stability at regionals, then you are a fool.
We are all in this together. As soon as you and your kind can get your heads out of your collective asses, you might grasp that we can ALL be mainline and that WE have the power. No pilots, no Airlines. But as long as pilots are willing to undercut each other, Management wins.

Was there any reason to swear at me? I guess people aren't reading my posts accurately because I can say the word "white" and everyone will be adamant that I just said "black". I NEVER EVER said the regionals were stable. I HAVE ALWAYS said that if you are flying a plane all painted up in United colors (whatever the h*ll that is these days) or are flying a plane in Continental colors (again, whatever the h*ll that is these days) or a plane in Delta colors, or a plane in American colors, you ought to d*mn well be employed by the airline whose name is painted on the side. But with the lack of unity among ALL airline pilots and our prehistoric and anti-labor business laws we have in this country, we have a bunch of bottom feeders doing 53% of the US domestic flying. And management wants to put more 90 seaters and now the new C series on regional property.

And where are all these jobs at mainline. Id love to know how many new jobs have actually become available at mainline since 9-11-01 that haven't since been furloughed and how many became available at the puke regionals? There just aren't enough jobs at mainline for all the rj folks that want to be there.

 

[amcnd]

One more interesting thing that may say who owns the airplanes is that Skywest planes don't have dual FMS's. Skywest has decided to keep the dual FMS system in the airplanes. Skywest likes consistancy in it's fleet but will be keeping the FMs setup in the Horizon planes. Whenever Skywest had gotten planes from other regionals, Skywest has always spent the money and reconfigured those planes from whatever differences they are to match the other Skywest planes. I would think that if the airplanes were truly going to be Skywest planes they would configure these planes to be like the rest of the fleet.

Horizons planes are way to different then the SkyWest set up to change them over.. We just changed our pre-start check to reflect a major diff.....

 

[Hamburger]

Was there any reason to swear at me? I guess people aren't reading my posts accurately because I can say the word "white" and everyone will be adamant that I just said "black".

Your post (#24) reeks with sarcasm, arrogance and ignorance. You most certainly didn't say "white". You said: "there is no hope of stability and a good job ever and only a retard would think otherwise."
Play the semantics game all you wish, but it is what you said.
Yes, that is reason to swear at you. You want to pretend that you're at one of those Comedy Central Roasts, then you don't get to cry when you get what you give.

And where are all these jobs at mainline. Id love to know how many new jobs have actually become available at mainline since 9-11-01 that haven't since been furloughed and how many became available at the puke regionals?

Seriously? You don't think anyone has been hired in the last decade? Really?
Nobody is going to knock on your door and give it to you. You get what you go out and take. I've had plenty of interviews since then. Tanked more than one, but in the end had to choose between offers.
Nobody is hiring in the last decade? Bull$hit.
You can sit around and cry or you can go out and get something better. What's it going to be?

 

[pipejockey]

Seriously? You don't think anyone has been hired in the last decade? Really?

Nobody is hiring in the last decade? Bull$hit.

I said nothing of the sort. I said that I'd love to know how many pilot jobs became available at the legacy carriers since 9-11. I did say and I quote "THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES" but obviously I didn't expect someone to take me absolutely literally. So I will restate that the pilot jobs at the legacy carriers have been few and far between, and a fraction of the number needed for most pilots to advance their careers from the puke regionals.

At AA there have been 0 pilot jobs available since 9-11, and they still have nearly 2,000 pilots furloughed. No hiring there for quite some time to come.

United did some brief hiring around the 2006 time period but have since furloughed and now have nearly 1500 furloughed leaving them with probably 0 pilots on property hired after 9-11, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Not too mention that I believe they announced they are parking 30 older 737's. No hiring there for quite some time to come.

USAir hired a small amount back in 2007 or 2006 and now have 76 furloughed. So perhaps they have about 200 pilots on property hired after 9-11. If anyone can provide more accurate info, please do! Limited hiring possible in the near future

Alaska did some hiring in 2004 or 2005 to my recollection, and they currently have 43 on furlough. I am guessing they have about 200 guys on property hired after 9-11. Hiring in the near future unlikely.

Continental did quite a bit of hiring between 2005 and 2007 if I'm not mistaken and they have no one left furloughed. I am guessing maybe 1500 guys on property hired after 9-11. Considering they have to offer jobs to the 1500 United furloughs before hiring off the street (They better be able to bring their UAL seniority since they will be one list) no hiring there for quite some time to come. By the time hiring does resume there, Continental will probably not exist anyway so it will be United hiring, but whatever.

Delta has no one furloughed and has hired in the 2005 to 2007 range and even hired last year I believe. NWA just started hiring in 2007 before they were absorbed by Delta, so maybe 2,000 pilot total on property hired after 9-11. With hiring in the near future a strong possibility depending on what oil does.

Hawaiian has no one furloughed but I am not sure if they hired since 9-11 or if they are planning to soon. Lets give them 50 post 9-11 new hires.

And keeping in mind that oil prices will continue to be a problem from here on out until we use our mental acumen to find a replacement for oil instead of figuring out how to screw as many people as possible for profit, there cannot be any expansion to this industry. Not too mention the limits of ATC. So any future hiring will be for attrition only in my opinion.

There you have it, all the Legacy carriers. So in my rough estimate, and I welcome any people at the above airlines to give more accurate numbers, a total of about 4,000 pilots have been hired at Legacy carriers after 9-11 that are still on property. Thats an average of 400 a year which is a drop in the bucket. Again, if anyone knows for a fact that my above estimates on any of the airlines above are widely inaccurate, please correct my numbers, as I think it would be very interesting to know how many pilots have been hired post 9-11 and are still employed.

Your post (#24) reeks with sarcasm, arrogance and ignorance. You most certainly didn't say "white". You said: "there is no hope of stability and a good job ever and only a retard would think otherwise."

I couldn't find any statement of the sort. I said there will never be any stability at the major airlines either. And I stand behind that statement 100%.

 

[NWaviator]

So, are you guys getting a PDX base? How are you going to feed crews through? Do you know what your plan is?

 

[amcnd]

SLC crews.. We already fly/overnight at all the citys anounced. If.. And if i grows a PDX base maybe...

 

[Full of LUV]

I said nothing of the sort. I said that I'd love to know how many pilot jobs became available at the legacy carriers since 9-11. I did say and I quote "THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS AT THE MAJOR AIRLINES" but obviously I didn't expect someone to take me absolutely literally. So I will restate that the pilot jobs at the legacy carriers have been few and far between, and a fraction of the number needed for most pilots to advance their careers from the puke regionals.

At AA there have been 0 pilot jobs available since 9-11, and they still have nearly 2,000 pilots furloughed. No hiring there for quite some time to come.

United did some brief hiring around the 2006 time period but have since furloughed and now have nearly 1500 furloughed leaving them with probably 0 pilots on property hired after 9-11, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Not too mention that I believe they announced they are parking 30 older 737's. No hiring there for quite some time to come.

USAir hired a small amount back in 2007 or 2006 and now have 76 furloughed. So perhaps they have about 200 pilots on property hired after 9-11. If anyone can provide more accurate info, please do! Limited hiring possible in the near future

Alaska did some hiring in 2004 or 2005 to my recollection, and they currently have 43 on furlough. I am guessing they have about 200 guys on property hired after 9-11. Hiring in the near future unlikely.

Continental did quite a bit of hiring between 2005 and 2007 if I'm not mistaken and they have no one left furloughed. I am guessing maybe 1500 guys on property hired after 9-11. Considering they have to offer jobs to the 1500 United furloughs before hiring off the street (They better be able to bring their UAL seniority since they will be one list) no hiring there for quite some time to come. By the time hiring does resume there, Continental will probably not exist anyway so it will be United hiring, but whatever.

Delta has no one furloughed and has hired in the 2005 to 2007 range and even hired last year I believe. NWA just started hiring in 2007 before they were absorbed by Delta, so maybe 2,000 pilot total on property hired after 9-11. With hiring in the near future a strong possibility depending on what oil does.

Hawaiian has no one furloughed but I am not sure if they hired since 9-11 or if they are planning to soon. Lets give them 50 post 9-11 new hires.

And keeping in mind that oil prices will continue to be a problem from here on out until we use our mental acumen to find a replacement for oil instead of figuring out how to screw as many people as possible for profit, there cannot be any expansion to this industry. Not too mention the limits of ATC. So any future hiring will be for attrition only in my opinion.

There you have it, all the Legacy carriers. So in my rough estimate, and I welcome any people at the above airlines to give more accurate numbers, a total of about 4,000 pilots have been hired at Legacy carriers after 9-11 that are still on property. Thats an average of 400 a year which is a drop in the bucket. Again, if anyone knows for a fact that my above estimates on any of the airlines above are widely inaccurate, please correct my numbers, as I think it would be very interesting to know how many pilots have been hired post 9-11 and are still employed.
.

Three events: 9/11 - mega recession - Age 65

Past performance may not equal future results. Beware of complacancy.

 

[charlieB]

Near as I can tell from my research, Alaska hired 346 since 9/11, and 43 are still out on involuntary furlough.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

So, are you guys getting a PDX base?

Yes, eventually.

How are you going to feed crews?

SkyWest doesn't feed their crews

Do you know what your plan is?

To take over the world, 50 seats at a time.