SWA pool is starting to drain!!!

[GuppyWN]

During their merger, Delta and Northwest were both legacies and had been to BK. SWA and Airtran are both currently profitable LCCs. I think Delta was a bigger airline overall, but relative seniority seemed to happen. Just be ready to eat humble pie.

One of them hadn't recently furloughed and the pay difference wasn't 40-70%.

Gup

 

[Lonestar]

Gary is keeping his distance and the SLI talks prolly won't get really cranking until after the closing and it's too late.

Gup

Guppy, I agree that we won't see Gary actively engaging in SLI talks. At the same time though, I don't see Gary allowing his legacy to be the guy that flushed the SWA culture down the toilet. A bad SLI for SWA pilots WILL create the next East/West saga.

DOCC has nothing to do with being 'too late' for anything. At DOCC, all that will have happened is that AirTran merged with Guadalupe Holdings, Inc.

AirTran is a predominantly 717 carrier, and as such can effectively be a separate carrier with no real consequence. If Gary makes the choice to keep the 717 operation separate, there will be no SLI. (I hear Gary has told the ATN MEC Chair this very same point!)

 

[Lonestar]

If the Arbiters take the point into account, they will not look at hiring minimums. They will look at the actual or average qualifications that pilots were hired with.

You may well be correct here. Either way, the result will be the same.

Throughout the history of ValuJet/AirTran, those hired worked more days for less money than their counterparts at nearly every legacy, LCC and UPS/FedEx.
Anyone who disagrees with this logic should then ask, "why AirTran"?
Given the choice, why would any competitive applicant intentionally choose the lowest option in terms of pay, benefits, QOL, etc. Many AT pilots decided these things were important to them, so you get the high % attrition from AT to SWA, CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, UAE, Cathay, etc (for years, nearly half the hiring at AT was to replace pilots lost to attrition).

There are many current AT captains who got hired with less than competitive mins for nearly every legacy and UPS/FedEx. The exception was the hiring in the mid to late 2000s when there weren't as many carriers hiring relative to the number of qualified applicants. They are young as a group because of this. This youth absolutely can have a negative impact on SWA pilots and will be a legitimate factor in any SLI decision ( if there is an SLI at all).

 

[johnsonrod]

One of them hadn't recently furloughed and the pay difference wasn't 40-70%.

Gup

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

 

[Max Powers]

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

Not only that but the airline being acquired (nwa) got to keep their pension to this day. Meaning some of the payroll resources are going only to NWA pilots. It is a frozen pension but for many it is an excellent pension. Something Delta will not see one dime of.

Talk about life being unfair. But from the NWA pilots perspective they didn't ask to be bought out. They do benefit from the buyout immensely but delta shareholders are the ones who paid the money to get it done.

To recap NWA got a nice pay raise kept their pensions and in many cases got even better than relative seniority in some cases they got less. AAI-SWA will be much the same.

Remeber SWA pilots are not giving us airtran guys anything. SWA shareholders are giving us the pay benefits etc. In other words SWA pilots are not taking a pay cut so we can make more.

 

[dicko]

The exception was the hiring in the mid to late 2000s when there weren't as many carriers hiring relative to the number of qualified applicants. They are young as a group because of this. This youth absolutely can have a negative impact on SWA pilots and will be a legitimate factor in any SLI decision ( if there is an SLI at all).

Hey,

Since 2002 the qualifications of the pilots hired at AirTran far exceeded the minimums of Legacies and SWA. We know there were exceptions. Probably 5 to 10 percent. One in my class.

That is over 70% of AirTrans seniority list.

If you look at the industry since that date it explains some of the answer to the question "why". An example; I would have lost a great deal of money by going to Delta. I'd still be losing money. Each case is different obviously.

I don't know whether the youth disadvantages SWA and I don't know if the Arbiters would account for it. It would certainly be an interesting exercise to attempt to collect the exact data required for an accurate comparison. :erm: Age versus the individuals qualifications on date of hire

Edit: I forgot about the 737 type requirement. My numbers are based on no requirement for a 737 type at time of employment. No, I dont want to restart the endless discussion regarding its value.

 

[Ty Webb]

To Lonestar and PapaW.-

Be careful about the "hiring minimums" argument. Most of the pilots hired by AirTran had experience that vastly exceeded the minimums.

You might find that, while SWA's "minimums" were higher, that the average AirTran hire actually had more flight time, especially if SWA hired more fighter types and corporate guys, while AirTran hired a bunch of Delta retirees and legacy furloughees.

 

[jonjuan]

Not only that but the airline being acquired (nwa) got to keep their pension to this day. Meaning some of the payroll resources are going only to NWA pilots. It is a frozen pension but for many it is an excellent pension. Something Delta will not see one dime of.

Talk about life being unfair. But from the NWA pilots perspective they didn't ask to be bought out. They do benefit from the buyout immensely but delta shareholders are the ones who paid the money to get it done.

To recap NWA got a nice pay raise kept their pensions and in many cases got even better than relative seniority in some cases they got less. AAI-SWA will be much the same.

Remeber SWA pilots are not giving us airtran guys anything. SWA shareholders are giving us the pay benefits etc. In other words SWA pilots are not taking a pay cut so we can make more.

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

 

[redflyer65]

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

You guys are really comparing NWA/DL vs SW/AAI?

I'm sorry but that's not even close to similar.

Guppy,

Your numbers are off, its more like 50-100 percent pay difference. NW/DL wasn't even close to that disparity.

 

[redflyer65]

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

I see this going more like the TranStar aquisition. History may repeat itself.

 

[jonjuan]

I see this going more like the TranStar aquisition. History may repeat itself.

Your eye doctor called. He said you need to change your prescription.

 

[General Lee]

You guys are really comparing NWA/DL vs SW/AAI?

I'm sorry but that's not even close to similar.

Guppy,

Your numbers are off, its more like 50-100 percent pay difference. NW/DL wasn't even close to that disparity.

Are you sure about that? You are forgetting that DL and NWA have a lot of different plane types, from DC9s to 744s now. The NWA side had fences around equipment for 20 years after the NWA/Republic deal went through, and that fence just came down before the DL merger. A senior DC9 Captain at NWA could easily hold 767 Captain at Delta, and that pay raise was HUGE, and many took it after the SLI happened. Also, the difference NOW between Airtran and SWA is not has much as it was before the recent Airtran contract renewal. You have to compare the difference NOW, not before, and that is what the arbitrator will look at. It is NOT 50% raise now, thanks to the new contract they just got.

Also, it doesn't matter if the SWA/AT merger is JUST like or not like the DL/NWA merger. Precedent will be looked at with the DL/NWA and the AWA/USAir merger. There is nothing you can do about it. The lawyers and arbitrators will help decide it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

General,

Yes I'm sure about it. I've run the numbers on here before and its a MASSIVE difference. Not even close to a pre-merger NW/DL payscale differences and career expectations.

I usually try to respect most of your comments, but saying they are going to use their new contract now is just flat out wrong and I think you probably know that.

The snapshot of work rules and seniority list was taken Sept. 27th.

Did the career expecations of AAI change on that day? Honest question that no one wants to answer.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

Everything is senority based.... Opentime, vacation, equipment... Organic SWA has a lot to lose...

We are expecting to keep the 300/500 for 10 more years so AAI will likely get to play with our toys too....

 

[General Lee]

General,

Yes I'm sure about it. I've run the numbers on here before and its a MASSIVE difference. Not even close to a pre-merger NW/DL payscale differences and career expectations.

I usually try to respect most of your comments, but saying they are going to use their new contract now is just flat out wrong and I think you probably know that.

The snapshot of work rules and seniority list was taken Sept. 27th.

Did the career expecations of AAI change on that day? Honest question that no one wants to answer.

Why did the AT management settle their contrat then? To be nice? They wanted to close the gap as much as they could. And, there is NO snapshot of workrules, only seniority lists. If any newhires come on after the announcement of the merger, then they will be placed at the bottom (happened for the DL/NWA merger---it will happen again). And to try to answer your question, how can you know what the final career expectations were of any AT pilot? Maybe if they stayed away from SWA, maybe they could have hit it HUGE, and had a SWA style contract in 5 years? You don't know. Maybe SWA could have had a string of accidents and then gone BK. All that is certain is that both SWA and AT have 737-700s as their largest plane (738s coming for both) currently, and both have smaller planes (735s and 717s). They are both profitable LCCs at the moment. Yes, SWA is bigger, and that will be taken into account by the arbitrators no doubt. But, there will be some AT people filtered in near the top of your list, and on downward. They may not be at the top, or top 300, but they will be there, and there will also be SWA pilots at the bottom of the combined list. All newhires since the announcement of the merger will be placed at the bottom of the SLI. Even poolies.

My point is Red, nobody knows what AT could have turned out to be, and nobody knows what might have happened to SWA if there were some accidents or problems. Career expectations right now for both is 737-700 (or -800) Captain. Looking at the current payrates for both airlines on APC, it looks like per hour (or trip) there is a difference of about $40. That was pretty close to the DL/NWA difference on certain planes (we didn't have exactly the same type planes), and NWA still had a frozen pension too. Expect about the same look at it from an arbitrator.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

Narrow minded post.

 

[General Lee]

Everything is senority based.... Opentime, vacation, equipment... Organic SWA has a lot to lose...

We are expecting to keep the 300/500 for 10 more years so AAI will likely get to play with our toys too....

Doesn't AT have about 85 717s? Have you ever seen those planes? They have very nice MD11 style cockpits, big quiet engines, and probably could be used on the West Coast too. They are about as big as a 737-500, and are a heck of a lot newer. It will be interesting to see what the final pay rate will be via SWAPA on the 717, but if it is close to the 737, I doubt many of the AT guys would want to leave it. You may actually want to upgrade on it someday. Go take a look at it or check it out on the internet. And, I know a certain large legacy airline is interested in them NOW if SWA wants to dump them.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Narrow minded post.

Based on precedent. What is your reply based on? FEAR.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I see this going more like the TranStar aquisition. History may repeat itself.

Red,

Since that happened, the Bond/McKaskil bill was introduced (preventing a staple), and there have been two very recent arbitration proceedings concerning SLIs. Those things will be used here, not the Transtar or Morris acquisitions.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

General,

You need to brush up on what happened there. Even if Bond/Mac were in effect then......wait for it......wouldn't have made a difference. They didn't integrate the seniority list.

 

[RedDogC130]

Nothing in Bond/McKakil prevents a staple....nothing

most might think a staple is wrong...depending on which side you are on.

But there is nothing in the bill that "PREVENTS" a staple.....it just make a means to make it a not a guarantee.

 

[PapaWoody]

Red,

Since that happened, the Bond/McKaskil bill was introduced (preventing a staple), and there have been two very recent arbitration proceedings concerning SLIs. Those things will be used here, not the Transtar or Morris acquisitions.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Don't forget the other recent arbitrated precedent, Chautaqua/Shuttle America, which actually resembles this one a lot more closely than the two you keep harping about (which were decided not under Bond-McCaskill, but ALPA policy, btw.) Of course, any precedent that doesn't support the pipe dream that is relative seniority for the AAI guys will be summarily dismissed, so get busy living up to expectations.

PapaWoody

 

[General Lee]

General,

You need to brush up on what happened there. Even if Bond/Mac were in effect then......wait for it......wouldn't have made a difference. They didn't integrate the seniority list.

So wait, you are saying that you guys AREN'T GOING TO INTEGRATE THE LISTS? Really? Can you do that with that Bond/Mac law in place? Hmmmm, I don't know about that. You said you thought it would go via the Transtar route, right? I just want to understand why you think that? Chase keeps saying he looks forward to flying with the AT guys/gals. Are you right, or is he right?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Don't forget the other recent arbitrated precedent, Chautaqua/Shuttle America, which actually resembles this one a lot more closely than the two you keep harping about (which were decided not under Bond-McCaskill, but ALPA policy, btw.) Of course, any precedent that doesn't support the pipe dream that is relative seniority for the AAI guys will be summarily dismissed, so get busy living up to expectations.

PapaWoody

What were the expectations of the USAir East guys? Their airline was about to liquidate. Still, they were given the top 500 spots because they had INTL routes and larger planes, and then it went relative. AT flies INTL routes, and has things that would be very important to any business plan, primarily a large Southern presence in a hub that SWA could not get into, and DCA/LGA slots that are worth a lot. All of that will help the case of the AT pilots, and I have never said they (AT pilots) will get the top slots, or even the top 300, but they will be intermixed down the list, and SWA guys and AT guys will frequent the bottom. Will you be one of those guys?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nothing in Bond/McKakil prevents a staple....nothing

most might think a staple is wrong...depending on which side you are on.

But there is nothing in the bill that "PREVENTS" a staple.....it just make a means to make it a not a guarantee.

What are the chances an arbitrator would do that? Can you give me a % chance that YOU think it could happen. Even though you know that Airtran is bringning significant gains to a combined airline, what are the chances that an arbitrator would staple them?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PapaWoody]

What were the expectations of the USAir East guys? Their airline was about to liquidate. Still, they were given the top 500 spots because they had INTL routes and larger planes, and then it went relative. AT flies INTL routes, and has things that would be very important to any business plan, primarily a large Southern presence in a hub that SWA could not get into, and DCA/LGA slots that are worth a lot. All of that will help the case of the AT pilots, and I have never said they (AT pilots) will get the top slots, or even the top 300, but they will be intermixed down the list, and SWA guys and AT guys will frequent the bottom. Will you be one of those guys?


Bye Bye---General Lee

That was a nice job ignoring the precedent that didn't support your assertions. For the record, there were approx. 850 SWA guys hired before VJ/AAI existed, so you only missed your estimate of the "top slots" by about 550.

PapaWoody

PS I'm pretty sure I'll be staying in the left seat.

 

[General Lee]

That was a nice job ignoring the precedent that didn't support your assertions. For the record, there were approx. 850 SWA guys hired before VJ/AAI existed, so you only missed your estimate of the "top slots" by about 550.

PapaWoody

PS I'm pretty sure I'll be staying in the left seat.

There were a lot more USAir East guys hired before AWA guys than just 500, but Nicalau made the award like that. It was up to him. Your arbitrator(s) will have the same ability. Can you please give me the run down of the CHQ/Republic decision, and why that one should be used and not one of two seperate companies? CHQ and Republic are owned by the same holding company, and there may have been pilots moving from subsidiary to subsidiary before the merge. Can you say that didn't happen? That did NOT occur between USAir East and West. Why are you stating your example will happen, when they were owned by the same company? You know that doesn't seem the same as SWA/AT, right? The holding company could probably transfer routes and equipment between companies prior to the SLI there.

And, I bet you will stay in the left seat. The only question is, will Ty be senior to you? No flame there, just wondering. You never know when it comes to arbitration. I don't think he will lose his seat either. Good luck to you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PapaWoody]

There were a lot more USAir East guys hired before AWA guys than just 500, but Nicalau made the award like that. It was up to him. Your arbitrator(s) will have the same ability. Can you please give me the run down of the CHQ/Republic decision, and why that one should be used and not one of two seperate companies? CHQ and Republic are owned by the same holding company, and there may have been pilots moving from subsidiary to subsidiary before the merge. Can you say that didn't happen? That did NOT occur between USAir East and West. Why are you stating your example will happen, when they were owned by the same company? You know that doesn't seem the same as SWA/AT, right? The holding company could probably transfer routes and equipment between companies prior to the SLI there.

And, I bet you will stay in the left seat. The only question is, will Ty be senior to you? No flame there, just wondering. You never know when it comes to arbitration. I don't think he will lose his seat either. Good luck to you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Shuttle America was acquired by Republic in 2005, and then their seniority list was merged with the Chautauqua (Republic) pilots via an arbitration proceeding. The S/A pilots were the beneficiaries of Chautauqua's vastly superior contract and work rules, and that benefit substantially affected the way the lists were integrated. Sound familiar?

As for whether Ty will be senior to me, who knows? That comes awfully close to offering an opinion as to how this will play out. I'm just here to counter the idea that somehow the "law" requires relative seniority, when there is no basis for that view, either in fact or in precedent.

And for the record, I know how AAI guys feel about the word "staple", which is why I have never used it, either in my posts or even my own personal idea of how this should go. But if they can't understand why SWA guys feel the same way about "relative seniority", then I guess there isn't any real effort to meet in the middle. For the most part, though, I think guys on both sides of the aisle get that. At least, I hope so.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Ty Webb]

As for whether Ty will be senior to me, who knows?

I don't want to be senior to you, I just don't want to give up what I have earned/worked for.

And for the record, I know how AAI guys feel about the word "staple", which is why I have never used it, either in my posts or even my own personal idea of how this should go. But if they can't understand why SWA guys feel the same way about "relative seniority", then I guess there isn't any real effort to meet in the middle. For the most part, though, I think guys on both sides of the aisle get that. At least, I hope so.

I "get it" . . . . . and somehow, we will all get through it, together.

Regards,
Ty

 

[MILF Hunter]

Why did the AT management settle their contrat then? To be nice? They wanted to close the gap as much as they could. And, there is NO snapshot of workrules, only seniority lists

Career expectations right now for both is 737-700 (or -800) Captain.

Wow, there's a lot to comment on in this thread!
General, everyone knows you are wise beyond your years, but where did you get the rules regarding what the arbitrators MUST and MUST NOT use to form an opinion on SLI? There can be a snapshot of anything anyone wants to take a snapshot of. Swapa absolutely can make the claim that the AT pilots' recent contract is the direct result of the SWA acquisition. There is plenty of evidence to make that claim.

Why did AT management choose to settle the contract talks? AT management has no concern for it's labor groups so I don't think they did it out of kindness jsut to close the gap for the pilots. Since Gary Kelly was present and had direct influence on the final talks that resulted in the TA, I would have to think he forced AT mgmts hand to prevent any serious labor issues during the transition process.

Did the AT pilots settle when they voted YES for the contract? Maybe, but either way the past 5-6 years showed how unwilling mgmt was to increase costs so its really harrd to guess what they COULD have gotten.

Regarding career expectations...it could be argued that, for the majority of AT captains, the expectation was to be a 717 captain. Luckily, they may get to keep that expectation because it may be shown over the next 3-6 months that Gary will be smarter to keep the 717 operation separate. And yes, Gary can do that. And yes, that can happen without triggering Bond/McCaskill or any SLI at all.