Breaking in a new SIC...help

[dhc8fo]

Hey guys. I have never had a "new" SIC before. It has always been a co-captain situation. I am going off in a new plane with a guy who isn't typed yet and was wondering how you handle getting him SIC qual'd. He is a former jet guy and will be going to school for his type shortly, but in the mean time....three takeoffs and landings? That's it basically? And from the right seat? (I sure as hell ain't gonna fly from the right). Anything else I need to know?

Thanks!

 

[LongBoarder]

(I sure as hell ain't gonna fly from the right)

I undertand what you are looking for... I would go and read the requirements of 61.58.

Also... I would change the attitude of what seat you sit in... As PIC you should be comfortable in either seat. Just Sayin....

LB

 

[con-pilot]

I'm a bit curious as to what your insurance carrier has to say about this. This day and age, I have a hard time believing that any insurance carrier would be content with just three takeoffs and landings, to a full stop remember, for currency.

As for my personal recommendations; if the pilot is low time and has not much experience in jet aircraft, see the following.

1. Send him to school as soon as possible. If necessary use a free lance pilot to fill in until your pilot gets back.

2. At first, let him fly all the deadhead legs. If you don't have that many deadheads, have him start flying from the right seat only in good weather until he has enough experience to start swapping seats. As for flying from the right seat, thousands and thousands of airline pilots spent years in the right seat before moving to the left seat, it's no big deal.

3. Never push the new guy into situation that they will be uncomfortable in. Conversely, do not get into a position where their hummingbird arse becomes overloaded in an elephant's butts situation. In other words, watch their ego.

Now, if the new guy is a very experienced pilot in similar type equiptment, just request a waiver from your insurance carrier and go forth until you have time to sent them to school. Also, after the actual flight training, start swapping seats if you are comfortable as soon as you can.

Good luck.

 

[LR25]

Thats what happened to Paine Stewart, new Capt, and new FO.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

What kind of plane? FAR 61.55 is pretty specific.

 

[NCherches]

....FNG's buy the beer.

 

[BoilerUP]

Many insurance policies will waive the 12-month simulator requirement for a new pilot...at least temporarily.

61.55 tells you all you need to know; if you're going out of the country (and even if not) it'd be worthwhile to spend the 5 minutes to do the paperwork for an SIC type rating. Personally, I'd want him very familiar with bold face/memory items & at least have gone through the QRH a time or two with him prior to flying passengers.

I'd recommend doing your 3 TOLs full stop/taxi back, at a light weight, after reviewing brake energy tables to make sure you'll be okay in that regard.

If the guy is a professional pilot just not trained on your specific aircraft, treat him as such and not some green know-nothing FNG...after all, once you reach a certain point in your career, one airplane flies pretty much like the other.

 

[fisherpilot]

If the guy is a professional pilot just not trained on your specific aircraft, treat him as such and not some green know-nothing FNG...after all, once you reach a certain point in your career, one airplane flies pretty much like the other.

Agree 100%. I have seen so many times where guys who act like Captain America treat an SIC like they have never been in a plane. Every aircraft I have flown works the same. Push down "Big Houses", Pull Up "Little Houses".

I wouldn't let him fly their first leg with pax but see how they do with empty legs and if you have good wx and long runways let them fly with pax. If something happens to you I'm sure you would want them to be able to safely land the plane.

BUT.... I agree with the other replies. Send them to school. It should be a no brainer

 

[OldManPilot]

I always found what you allow from a new f/o depends mostly on you, the Captain. How big or little is your comfort zone? Me, as long as when I hit the DH/MDA with a runway in front of me, and the guy/girl is not getting me violated I am cool. Sit down and go over the systems to give him/her some understanding. Do the 3-required t/o and leg. Make it fun and safe. Then sit and debrief. All should go well. A bonus if you can debrief over a couple cold ones.

 

[Hamburger]

The SIC quals are in the regs and pretty straightforward. As for actually working together, you could deflate the attitude a bit and think to way back when YOU were the new guy who needed "breaking in". Do what your Captain did. It seems to have turned you into a guy so amazing that sitting in the other seat is beneath you.

 

[2000Easyguy]

Many insurance policies will waive the 12-month simulator requirement for a new pilot...at least temporarily.

61.55 tells you all you need to know; if you're going out of the country (and even if not) it'd be worthwhile to spend the 5 minutes to do the paperwork for an SIC type rating. Personally, I'd want him very familiar with bold face/memory items & at least have gone through the QRH a time or two with him prior to flying passengers.

I'd recommend doing your 3 TOLs full stop/taxi back, at a light weight, after reviewing brake energy tables to make sure you'll be okay in that regard.

If the guy is a professional pilot just not trained on your specific aircraft, treat him as such and not some green know-nothing FNG...after all, once you reach a certain point in your career, one airplane flies pretty much like the other.

Good points!

 

[BuckMurdock1]

(I sure as hell ain't gonna fly from the right)

You may want to start by getting over yourself, Chuck.

 

[dhc8fo]

The SIC quals are in the regs and pretty straightforward. As for actually working together, you could deflate the attitude a bit and think to way back when YOU were the new guy who needed "breaking in". Do what your Captain did. It seems to have turned you into a guy so amazing that sitting in the other seat is beneath you.

No, not at all. All I was saying is that we all fly as Captains. We swap seats. Therefore, there is really no flying from the right seat. That is what I mean when I say that I am not comfortable putting this guy in the left yet. He has more time and types than me, but from years back and he isn't typed in THIS PLANE yet. That's all. I read the reg...just asking how you guys would proceed.

Geez guys.....

 

[dhc8fo]

You may want to start by getting over yourself, Chuck.

Not meant from his ability standpoint...meant from my comfort standpoint. Come on!

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Not meant from his ability standpoint...meant from my comfort standpoint. Come on!

I think most people knew what you meant. I haven't flown from the right seat in years.

 

[stupidpilot]

How do you break him in? Do you possess a rather large stick?

 

[400A]

For those of you making smart comments about his right seat comment. Consider this. It may have nothing to do with "getting over himself" as you say.

I have always been very generous about letting new guys fly. With a qualified guy, I swap seats. BUT! If the aircraft has a tiller... No Way! If the unqualified occupant who would be in the left seat would block my access to major system switches / controls / breaker panels... NO WAY!

If this person has never dealt with a rookie and is unsure of the situation, he is making the proper call to limit him or her. I have experienced situations where a unqualified SIC was more of a liability than an asset. In fact, I have flown with people with a current .135 check who were a liability. Don't judge without the facts. He asked for advice, not a beat down.

My advice, In addition to regs, make sure you spend plenty of time on the ground in the cockpit. Make sure he or she is familiar with the switches you want them to handle and which ones you make clear that you will handle. Good briefings and a clear understanding of this persons duties will minimize difficulties. Don't ever assume that a new guys knows what is standard or correct. Never assume that anyone has the same version of "standard" that you do.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

400a makes good points IMO...

I could care less how long a guy sits in the right seat, and why would he care? does the pay change?

If you are running a plane for someone you have more on the line than someones fragile ego about sitting in the left seat. Of course, show you are capable over a period of time - no problem. I certainly dont care what you did at previous jobs etc..

Also - what is "qualified?"....does that mean a PIC check and type from FSI? - because that means all of ZERO to me. All that says is someone paid for you to go to some (marginal?) training at a sim center. Most of us have met plenty of self-proclaimed typed "Captains" who we would hardly let shut the door.

Anyone with some decent skills and confidence would gladly fly right seat for awhile to show what they can do, and the same goes for a confident PIC - he should be willing to move over and let the other guy fly at a point also, otherwise his skills are in question IMO..

 

[Hamburger]

No, not at all. All I was saying is that we all fly as Captains. We swap seats. Therefore, there is really no flying from the right seat. That is what I mean when I say that I am not comfortable putting this guy in the left yet. He has more time and types than me, but from years back and he isn't typed in THIS PLANE yet.

You still got pedals and a yoke in front of you in the right seat?
How could there possibly any sort of comfort issue from either seat?
Ego issue, yes. Comfort?????

This thread seems to not be about him. It's about you.
New guy on your turf....... He's got more time, more types and you hesitate to let him touch THE wheel, even though both wheels do the same thing.

You were there first and it's YOUR plane. Even if you are in the right seat. There is nothing wrong with letting him drive YOUR plane, even if he's more 'qualified' than you.

Any 'breaking in' that he requires will most likely have everything to do with what the owners expect in terms of rental cars, catering, washing the plane, etc. He will likely need nothing more from you than to set the mold for your company's expectations for standardization, work ethic, alcohol enjoyment, Captain's Confidence/Authority, etc...........

 

[stupidpilot]

He's got to be just as perfect as me or he doesn't get to touch anything!!!!

 

[400A]

You still got pedals and a yoke in front of you in the right seat?
How could there possibly any sort of comfort issue from either seat?
Ego issue, yes. Comfort?????

This thread seems to not be about him. It's about you.
New guy on your turf....... He's got more time, more types and you hesitate to let him touch THE wheel, even though both wheels do the same thing.

You were there first and it's YOUR plane. Even if you are in the right seat. There is nothing wrong with letting him drive YOUR plane, even if he's more 'qualified' than you.

Any 'breaking in' that he requires will most likely have everything to do with what the owners expect in terms of rental cars, catering, washing the plane, etc. He will likely need nothing more from you than to set the mold for your company's expectations for standardization, work ethic, alcohol enjoyment, Captain's Confidence/Authority, etc...........

Very dangerous thoughts here. He already stated that he is new in the aircraft himself, and now you are advising him to throw someone that has never been in the aircraft in the left seat? As I stated before, in many aircraft, there is so much more than a yoke and pedals. We have not even established what kind of aircraft is involved here. I can tell you from 5 years of check airman experience, that correcting screw ups from the right seat is far more challenging from the right side. He already stated he has NEVER done this before. Why in the world would you advise him to leave his comfort zone and blame it on ego when you know nothing about him. There is a reason rookies are not allowed to do IOE.

If you really want to talk about sensitive ego's, why would you be offended by the right seat of an aircraft you have never flown? When I do contract, I could care less were I sit. Pay me my daily rate and I am more than happy to talk on the radio, sling the gear and look out the window while not having to sweat all the management details.

 

[Hamburger]

. I can tell you from 5 years of check airman experience, that correcting screw ups from the right seat is far more challenging from the right side.

It's hard to correct your own screw ups when they come from your seat? Huh?

He already stated that he is new in the aircraft himself.........

Actually, what he said was that the aircraft, which he must be current and qualified in at PIC was new. He also said that there was NO flying from the right seat.
If there is NO flying from the right seat and he refuses to sit in the right seat, how is the new guy supposed to get his hands on the wheel?

If you really want to talk about sensitive ego's, why would you be offended by the right seat of an aircraft you have never flown? When I do contract, I could care less were I sit.

My point exactly.

 

[400A]

My point exactly.

Not hardly. You are bashing him for not putting him in the left. Point and case. If my boss got on the plane and saw a new face that he knew nothing about in the left seat, he would simply get off. Most corporate operations have strict policies about this. There is a long line of bent airplanes and dead people that confirm why we do it this way. I have yet to see a company SOP refer to the Captains sensitive ego that you keep fussing about.

Stop bashing the guy for making good decisions considering all factors.

 

[Hamburger]

Not hardly. You are bashing him for not putting him in the left. Point and case. If my boss got on the plane and saw a new face that he knew nothing about in the left seat, he would simply get off. Most corporate operations have strict policies about this. There is a long line of bent airplanes and dead people that confirm why we do it this way. I have yet to see a company SOP refer to the Captains sensitive ego that you keep fussing about.

Stop bashing the guy for making good decisions considering all factors.

No touching the wheel in the right seat...

Therefore, there is really no flying from the right seat.

How's new guy going to get his hands on the wheel?

 

[Hamburger]

As I stated before, in many aircraft, there is so much more than a yoke and pedals. We have not even established what kind of aircraft is involved here.

What, exactly, (besides a tiller) do you not have full, unrestricted access to in any aircraft from both seats?

 

[400A]

Read it again, he did not say the new guy could not touch it from the right. He said that HE was not comfortable from the right because they do not normally do that.

Our operation is similar. We are both Captains and swap seats every other leg. I have yet to fly the Hawker from the right seat. There is no way I am going to put someone in the left seat with a tiller the has never flown the aircraft. He is more than welcome to fly it from the right, once I have seen 3 bounces.

 

[400A]

What, exactly, (besides a tiller) do you not have full, unrestricted access to in any aircraft from both seats?

In the Beechjet there were several items on the left side panel. Citations have switches over by the Captains left knee. King Air electrical panel is by the Captains left knee. all fairly critical if the stuff hits the fan.

 

[Hamburger]

Read it again, he did not say the new guy could not touch it from the right. He said that HE was not comfortable from the right because they do not normally do that.

I can read just fine. Feel free to quote where that was said. All I've got is a quote where the exact opposite was said:

Therefore, there is really no flying from the right seat. .

I'm not the only one that caught the tone, either.

 

[Hamburger]

In the Beechjet there were several items on the left side panel. Citations have switches over by the Captains left knee. King Air electrical panel is by the Captains left knee. all fairly critical if the stuff hits the fan.

Electrical emergency in Beech, Citation, King Air scares the Captain so bad he has a heart attack while you're in the right seat...............The flight is doomed and all the passengers die because you're helplessly unable to do anything about it?

 

[400A]

I can read just fine. Feel free to quote where that was said. All I've got is a quote where the exact opposite was said:
I'm not the only one that caught the tone, either.

He already explained it to you once. You can not only quote one sentence and show the whole picture. Go read the entire paragraph you quoted. He stated very plainly that because they are all PIC qualified they do not fly in the right seat. Don't know how else to make you understand that.