Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[Cowboy75]

Congrats to SW and Airtran. Please use US Airways as an example of how not to merge pilot groups. Just look to how the big boys and girls at DL/NW came together and moved on. Good luck to Continental and United as well.

Ok, back to career stagnation.

 

[MCDU]

If they plan on using a Nic slotting:
A 1998 former PFT Valuejet hire is a captain in the top 10 percent of the whole list..maybe closer to 8th percentile. I doubt that a 1998 hire at SWA is in that percentile.

DOH list, you'd be putting a 98 DOH Former Valuejet guy with a 98 DOH at SWA gets you, which I'm guessing is in the 40ish percentile and now your putting a 10th percentile Airtran pilot in with a 10th percentile SWA guy (80s hire?),


The SWA pilots are going to love relative seniority. It will be just like the Nic. and the SWAPA will love it.

M

 

[Guppiedriver]

If they plan on using a Nic slotting:
A 1998 former PFT Valuejet hire is a captain in the top 10 percent of the whole list..maybe closer to 8th percentile. I doubt that a 1998 hire at SWA is in that percentile.

DOH list, you'd be putting a 98 DOH Former Valuejet guy with a 98 DOH at SWA gets you, which I'm guessing is in the 40ish percentile and now your putting a 10th percentile Airtran pilot in with a 10th percentile SWA guy (80s hire?),


The SWA pilots are going to love relative seniority. It will be just like the Nic. and the SWAPA will love it.

M

If the Southwest pilots don't like the results of the arbitrated list all they've got to do is change the name of the union and insist that they had nothing to do with SWAPA. Right?

 

[doh]

They can say it has nothing to do with the arbitration. They just didn't think they were representing themselves. So they dumped themselves for self representation!:laugh:

 

[Cowboy75]

They can say it has nothing to do with the arbitration. They just didn't think they were representing themselves. So they dumped themselves for self representation!:laugh:

I like your twisted but logical line of thinking.

 

[Cowboy75]

Merger Committee Briefing
Merger Committee Chairman Bob Davison discussed the Change of Control (COC) provisions in our contract and gave an update on exactly how we plan to enforce that language should the need arise. The BPR examined a proposal to secure Merger & Acquisition (M&A) counsel for the purpose of representing us on this critical piece of our contract in a merger scenario. Lee Seham provided an overview of how this proposal would work and reiterated the great lengths to which US Airways management said they would go in attempting to circumvent the COC language. He also noted that the firms being considered for M&A counsel, while they work at higher hourly rates than Seham, Seham, Meltz and Petersen, will work more cost effectively because they specialize in this area of representation. The Committee followed with a review of the proposed Conditions and Restrictions to protect West pilots’ interests in USAPA’s seniority proposal, and they solicited BPR input on any changes needed to update the C&Rs since there have been several changes in staffing since they were first developed. Some discussion was conducted on the recently announced merger between Southwest and AirTran. Lastly, USAPA Counsel Lee Seham reviewed our legal position concerning the Company’s recent request for declaratory judgment, which appears to be nothing more than a delay tactic to keep our seniority dispute alive even though it has been dismissed in court.

Conditions and restrictions have been placed on USAPA, thanks to Leonidas LLC protecting West pilots' interests.

The company is seeking the declaratory judgement since the 9th said our case was not ripe and did not resolve the seniority dispute. Would you care to review the Phoenix Crew News from 9/23/10 for a refresher? Does DFRII also ring a bell?

 

[doh]

Any idea when they will issue a ruling on the declaratory judgement?

 

[Cowboy75]

Any idea when they will issue a ruling on the declaratory judgement?

No idea about a timeline.
Usapians are taking advantage of the sluggish wheels of our justice system. Feed the masses their BS of false hopes. In reality it's just a game of deception and delay.

 

[Sandhawk]

I bet you guys hired a bunch of guys in their 30's and maybe even a few in their 20's and I know age has nothing to do with any legal or even Nicolaus' decision making but it sure will affect the day to day line flying! I'm in my 50's and if the nic was implimented right now I would have your 04/05 hires as my captains and you think there will be chaos with no nic?

Why do you guys keep bringing up age? How old were you when you got hired at USAir? Plenty of nepotism from years past resulted in many Easties being hired with minimal experience in their early 20s.....

Hell, "the Grievance Granny" was hired at 24.

 

[MCDU]

Why do you guys keep bringing up age? How old were you when you got hired at USAir? Plenty of nepotism from years past resulted in many Easties being hired with minimal experience in their early 20s.....

Hell, "the Grievance Granny" was hired at 24.

I agree with that. Especially prior to 1985. The only thing you have to mention is the majority of those young ones and minority pilots were hired at Piedmont. They are way up the seniority list due to their young age.


It was the younger Piedmont pilot group who wanted relative position with the USAIR pilots. It was also Piedmont who stapled Empire. USAIR was always a DOH airline and had older more experienced pilots. Most with military background.

Most 1987-1989 hires are old because they came from Midway, Braniff, Frontier, Air Florida, Eastern. Usair was the place to be back in the 80's.




One of these days many AWA pilots will see the benefits of DOH. Just like many former Piedmont pilots do now.

M

 

[becket]

. Usair was the place to be back in the 80's.

M

Honestly, if I have to hear how great USair was 25 years ago much more I'll puke. Half the fleet is parked in the Mojave, more pilots have been furloughed from there over the years than populate all of Southwest Airlines. US Air has been a thrice BK shizzhole since 1989!!

It's nearly 2011!!:laugh:

Why did all those morons keep accepting recall after being furloughed multiple times?

 

[charlie2]

Why do you guys keep bringing up age? How old were you when you got hired at USAir? Plenty of nepotism from years past resulted in many Easties being hired with minimal experience in their early 20s.....

Hell, "the Grievance Granny" was hired at 24.

I think all of us see themselves as a Captain as we get older and when we get old and are not it is hard. With the nic I will get Captains 20 to 25 years my junior which makes it even harder to take. I'm guessing you are really young and can't imagine getting older! I did also say that I know age has NO relevency in any legal proceedings but it will be really hard to throw the gear for someone so much younger than you. I guess I could nver have been a SgtMaj! Being a 30 year old captain to a 55 year old FO is a wonderfull windfall for you...enjoy!

 

[Cowboy75]

Honestly, if I have to hear how great USair was 25 years ago much more I'll puke. Half the fleet is parked in the Mojave, more pilots have been furloughed from there over the years than populate all of Southwest Airlines. US Air has been a thrice BK shizzhole since 1989!!

It's nearly 2011!!:laugh:

Why did all those morons keep accepting recall after being furloughed multiple times?

Us Air was never in the leagues of the true major carriers. Funny how they look down on HP when they were regional carriers under the name Us Air. It is a collective inferiority complex mentality that looks down on the rest of the industry.

They live in the past which keeps all of us from moving forward.

 

[charlie2]

Us Air was never in the leagues of the true major carriers. Funny how they look down on HP when they were regional carriers under the name Us Air. It is a collective inferiority complex mentality that looks down on the rest of the industry.

They live in the past which keeps all of us from moving forward.

Mangement is even using this as a reason for not giving us an industry leading contract as we are not an LCC or a major so we shouldn't get major wages! Corrrect me if I'm wrong (which I know you guys will do!) by the Air Transport Associations own definitions (gross revenue) we are a "Major" airline.

 

[Cowboy75]

Charlie,

I don't understand their reasoning and justification when SW, a LCC pays top wages. You and I both know it is just a BS excuse.

 

[charlie2]

Charlie,

I don't understand their reasoning and justification when SW, a LCC pays top wages. You and I both know it is just a BS excuse.

Definitley! I even thought it was kinda clever of Kirby to say that since we are not an "industry standard airline" than we shouldn't expect an industry standard contract!

 

[Cowboy75]

Definitley! I even thought it was kinda clever of Kirby to say that since we are not an "industry standard airline" than we shouldn't expect an industry standard contract!

Obviously, don't trust Kirby. I've talked with him on the airplane and after crew news sessions. He says one thing to us, another thing to you. Just a politician walking a tight rope.

I pay attention to what they do, not what they say, Charlie.

 

[Metrojet]

Honestly, if I have to hear how great USair was 25 years ago much more I'll puke. Half the fleet is parked in the Mojave, more pilots have been furloughed from there over the years than populate all of Southwest Airlines. US Air has been a thrice BK shizzhole since 1989!!

It's nearly 2011!!:laugh:

Why did all those morons keep accepting recall after being furloughed multiple times?

becket -

"America West operated in bankruptcy from 1991 to 1994. As part of its restructuring, the employee stock became worthless, the Hawaii and Nagoya routes were scrapped (and the 747s sold), and the airline's fleet was heavily pared down to 87 aircraft"

Nothing new there - talk about living in the past - lets move on

Metrojet

 

[Cowboy75]

becket -

Nothing new there - talk about living in the past - lets move on

Metrojet

Metro,

Obviously, we are at a point where the courts are going to be making decisions for us. You and I now we are in our trenches until a decision that is actuallly "binding" is handed down which can't be circumvented.

I'll be first to come out of my trench when that happens.

I will keep reminding you of our beer bet until then.:beer:

 

[Cowboy75]

Definitley! I even thought it was kinda clever of Kirby to say that since we are not an "industry standard airline" than we shouldn't expect an industry standard contract!

Charlie, Some people are growing frustrated with Kirby.

Example:

Dear Scott:
I just finished watching the latest PHX Crew News, and frankly I am a little puzzled by some of your answers during the Q&A session. It would seem there is a major disconnect from reality regarding the Final and Binding Arbitration decision of George Nicolau, and I offer some observations and a few questions please. The first issue is NEUTRALITY. You are correct that both MEC’s asked for and received neutrality from the company during the process that ended in Binding Arbitration. It was, and remains, an arbitration process signed onto by both East and West pilots through their respective MECs. In spite of knowingly and willingly signing that agreement, the East has been less than honorable in keeping that agreement by refusing to be held to the results. However, despite the dishonorable acts of the East pilots, the issue of company neutrality ended the day the arbitrated list was delivered and accepted by the company. The request for neutrality was a request to protect the sanctity of the PROCESS. You indicate during the Q&A that your opinion has, from week one, been the need for compromise. That statement raises a question. If you (the company) should win the current arbitration concerning the LOA93 “snap-back”, we can reasonably assume that the East pilots will be upset. Can we expect then to see you (the company) approach the East Pilots and offer compromise?” Conversely, if you (the company) should lose that arbitration, binding you to huge amounts of salary increases and back pay for the East Pilots, can we expect you (the company) to dodge the decision by reorganizing US Airways under a different name and operating certificate? It caused me a great deal of discomfort to watch you parse words, using ambiguity to camouflage the obvious. You maintain that a “second opinion” is out there concerning this quagmire. I respectfully disagree. The “second opinion” you refer to is simply an attempt by USAPA to achieve a second bite at the apple -- something they clearly are not entitled to under the TA, or the signed agreement to enter into Binding Arbitration. This is not, as you profess, a “point of law,” but rather a matter of HONOR -- something that I would expect a USAFA graduate to understand and uphold. HONOR is not negotiable, and having once taken the oath “I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor will I tolerate those among us who do” you know that. While I do not believe you to be a liar, a cheat, or a thief….I seriously question your tolerance of those among us who lie, cheat, and attempt to steal what is rightfully not theirs. The Tolerance clause of that oath does in fact include intent. I suspect you know that too. You indicated during the Q&A that your (the company’s) request for Declaratory Judgment would yield one of two answers. Either you (the company) will be bound to the arbitrated list vis-à-vis the Transition Agreement (signed by all three parties), or you (the company) will be free to entertain the “date of hire” concept preferred by the dishonorable people who formed and run USAPA. I suggest there is a third possibility. Approximately 18 months ago, you (the company) appealed to Judge Wake to not interfere in the running of your business, which resulted in you (the company) being excused from the Addington case (with restriction). With no resolution of the problem since that time, you (the company) are now asking the court system to reenter the fray and do what you have been unable, or unwilling, to do. I believe it likely now that the Federal Judge will NOT give you a peek under the rug at all; instead, telling you to “run your business and make some decisions.” I also believe the wrong decision will land you (the company) back in Federal Court as the defendant under less than optimistic circumstances -- and I believe you know that too. Your parsing of the difference between “accepting” the Arbitrated List, and “implementing” that list…was shallow sir. The “acceptance” was your agreed to portion of the Transition Agreement. The resulting implementation of that list through the CBA is your DUTY to both parties without qualification. Admittedly the dual ratification clause that was in place when the list was derived could have been problematic. But that ratification process no longer exists, and continuing to crouch behind that perception is disingenuous at best. Single ratification of a viable (for both company and pilots) CBA is not nearly as problematic, and could easily pass with the Nicolau section 22, if it otherwise provides industry standard improvements over the current East LOA93, and former AWA CBA. I once again, gently, remind you of those days at USAFA when HONOR and INTEGRITY were your constant companions. You are the Commander, and it is your sole responsibility to set the bar of behavior within this organization, and to hold those who refuse to stand to that bar accountable for their dereliction.

Respectfully,
Name withheld