Spirit contract unofficial results?

[chase]

Posted on the LCC/National section

74% approve, 96% voted

Any confirmation?

Thoughts on impact to AAI, other ALPA carriers?

 

[AKAAB]

It's confirmed on www.ALPA.org. The TA has been accepted.

 

[Sandhawk]

What a waste of a strike.........

Get em next time, boys!

 

[enigma]

What a waste of a strike.........

Get em next time, boys!

No strike is wasted as long as you got what you wanted. I really, REALLY, expected more of a pay raise, but the voting results indicate that 74% of the Spirit group got what they wanted.

Me?, If it were my decision, I'd never advocate for a strike unless I believed that the pre-strike working conditions were in fact intolerable, and if I believed that significant gains were possible. It appears that Bill Franke forced us to strike in order to make even minor gains. If he want's to play that game, I predict that Spirit will become known as the rattlesnake pilot group of the 20-teens.

 

[samballs]

OH strike failed, Spirit strike big fail, ALPA FAIL

 

[boomlrd]

I hate YES voters

 

[Old School 737]

Just so I don't spend a tone of time looking can someone post new pay scale and explain the 4 day off thing after getting in from a trip.
Thx.

 

[Mike man]

4 days off, is just that 4 days off after a set of days on...which is mostly 6 in a row (6 turns, 2 x turns and a 4 day, 2 x 3 days, or any variation).

Basically we are 6 on 4 off, so many lines have 12-14 days off and three blocks of 6 days on. Its pretty good for the commuters, and pretty good for the junior guys because they will usually get one full weekend off and one other weekend day off somewhere in the month.

Here is the pay scale from the TA (it says draft but it is what the YES voters voted in)

 

[SWA/FO]

What does DOS+1 mean?

 

[Metrojet]

What does DOS+1 mean?

Date of signing
+1 year
+2 years
+3 years
etc
etc

 

[Kharma Police]

4 days off, is just that 4 days off after a set of days on...which is mostly 6 in a row (6 turns, 2 x turns and a 4 day, 2 x 3 days, or any variation).

Basically we are 6 on 4 off, so many lines have 12-14 days off and three blocks of 6 days on. Its pretty good for the commuters, and pretty good for the junior guys because they will usually get one full weekend off and one other weekend day off somewhere in the month.

Here is the pay scale from the TA (it says draft but it is what the YES voters voted in)

Interesting jump in pay scales as the contract matures. What seniority is the most junior captain?

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Looks like 74 percent of Spirit pilots are a joke! How could they ever vote in a contract without retro pay?

 

[bubbers44]

Looks like 74 percent of Spirit pilots are a joke! How could they ever vote in a contract without retro pay?

74% of the Spirit pilots think they improved the TA as much as could be expected. Being released to cooling off is the only way airlines will improve working conditions and pay as was shown at Spirit. Maybe now other pilot groups will be given that opportunity.

 

[pilotyip]

and after all the "No" chatter, 74% yes, that is almost like a land slide

 

[aeolian]

Looks like 74 percent of Spirit pilots are a joke! How could they ever vote in a contract without retro pay?

I love all you hairy chested guys who establish some personal litmus test which, regardless of the quality of the package in todo, must be passed before you can see your way to yes!

Such logic well always leave an open door to say no to something which on balance is an improvement worth ratifying. You have to look at the total package, weigh the costs of an extended strike with the likelihood of achieving the desired improvement. If this deal is better on balance and your leadership believes it's the best that can be done then you are wise to follow their guidance, as it appears the vast majority of Spirit pilots did.

 

[PCL_128]

Looks like 74 percent of Spirit pilots are a joke! How could they ever vote in a contract without retro pay?

Actual retro pay is pretty rare in contracts. If 74 percent of the pilots voted yes, then that leads me to believe it was a pretty good deal for the Spirit pilots.

 

[Hutchman]

Actual retro pay is pretty rare in contracts.

This statement is FAR from the truth. The last negotiation cycle has been a hard fall so I guess you are right that there was no retro or the pilots would have to pay the company(that and the fact that contracts were not amendable at the time of concessions). Looking back to upward moving contracts, they contain full retro. Think about it......if you do not get full retro you have told management NOT to negotiate with you in good faith. The longer they drag it out the more money they save. Full retro is the only option to assure a good faith negotiation into the future.

 

[critterair2]

The lines that I've been seeing, least in ACY, 15, 16, 17 days off. couple lines have had more than that still at 80-83 hrs credit

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, there are a lot of other options to ensure good faith bargaining. You can build in deadlines into the duration section of the agreement. You can include early openers for groups of sections rather than waiting for the full Section 6 opener. You can include automatic pay bumps every year past the amendable date. The list goes on.

Clinging to the hope of full retro pay is no way to force a company to bargain in good faith, because quite frankly, companies don't have enough cash laying around to pay full retro pay. This isn't 1999 anymore, folks. If you wait around for full retro, you're the only one that's going to get screwed, not the company, because they're never going to end up paying it. Think outside of the box to find ways to force them to bargain in good faith.

 

[Mike man]

The lines that I've been seeing, least in ACY, 15, 16, 17 days off. couple lines have had more than that still at 80-83 hrs credit

I'm pretty sure you should know and now the rest of the FI world know that ACY is a tiny base with mostly turns with 6:30 or more of block so 4 on 4 off is the norm in ACY with high credit.

With this new CBA your days off are gone, your turns will go away and your credit will go up.

 

[Mike man]

Actually, there are a lot of other options to ensure good faith bargaining. You can build in deadlines into the duration section of the agreement. You can include early openers for groups of sections rather than waiting for the full Section 6 opener. You can include automatic pay bumps every year past the amendable date. The list goes on.

Clinging to the hope of full retro pay is no way to force a company to bargain in good faith, because quite frankly, companies don't have enough cash laying around to pay full retro pay. This isn't 1999 anymore, folks. If you wait around for full retro, you're the only one that's going to get screwed, not the company, because they're never going to end up paying it. Think outside of the box to find ways to force them to bargain in good faith.

Don't worry anybody...the CEO is still getting his bonus and stock options.

 

[Raoul Duke]

congrats on the new contract

 

[Hutchman]

...You can include early openers for groups of sections rather than waiting for the full Section 6 opener. You can include automatic pay bumps every year past the amendable date.

....quite frankly, companies don't have enough cash laying around to pay full retro pay....

How early did CAL start negotiating before the amendable date? 1 year. We are currently YEARS past the amendable date.

You CAN'T include pay bumps past the amendable date, because it is at that point....amendable. Please contact your negotiating committee for clarification.

Majors are sitting on the largest cash pile EVER. That is money on loan from the pilots. CAL has 3.5 BILLION in CASH. UAL 4.9 BILLION CASH.

Full retro is the only option. Management has proven time and time again that they will drag it out as long as you let them. How long has Spirit been waiting for a contract? 3 + years? Next time it will be 4 +.

 

[PCL_128]

How early did CAL start negotiating before the amendable date? 1 year. We are currently YEARS past the amendable date.

I'm not just talking about early Section 6 openers. That's pretty common. I'm talking about openers for non-economic sections during the term of the agreement that allow you to get them out of the way and not have to worry about them in Section 6. For example, let's say you have a 5 year agreement. You could set up openers for a few non-economic sections each year. That leaves just the economic, scope, and scheduling issues for Section 6 with the other sections already finished. During traditional Section 6 talks, it is easy to spend 18-24 months talking about mostly nonsense like Hostage and Internment, Filling of Vacancies, and Leaves of Absence. If you get these items out of the way during the term of the agreement, then you only have to address the big ticket items when you get to Section 6 openers. It's an idea that ALPA attorneys throw around on occasion, but most pilots are too dense to give it a try and always want their huge christmas list of gains that they want to achieve all at the same time at the amendable date.

You CAN'T include pay bumps past the amendable date, because it is at that point....amendable. Please contact your negotiating committee for clarification.

I think you might be the one that needs to call your local NC or attorney. Both the Mesaba and NetJets contracts contain pay raises every year past the amendable date, and they are fully enforceable. The amendable date has nothing to do with whether provisions can continue to extend past that date. In fact, the status quo period guarantees that anything provided for in the agreement will continue past the amendable date, even if it's more pay bumps.

How long has Spirit been waiting for a contract? 3 + years? Next time it will be 4 +.

A lot of this problem was related to the administration in the White House. The Obama NMB moved pretty quickly to bring this case to a close after they came on board a year ago. The Bush NMB let things languish for years with no intention of ever forcing them a conclusion.

 

[bubbers44]

Retro pay is unrealistic observing my airline career. It rarely happens. The RLA is the problem because getting released is so time consuming. That is what extends old contracts years and benefits management. The NMB needs to step up to the plate and get things right again. Management will use every tool they can find to cut costs. Prolonging contract negotiations is so easy now days with the present NMB. Hopefully the success of Spirit getting a contract will convince them to release more pilot groups to 30 days cooling off.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Pay raises past the amendable date were also done at SWA.

Negotiations which last the length of the contract is the joke.

Pilot groups should be refusing to fly open time, calling in sick in mass, slowing the on-time performance to a crawl with slow flying and slow taxiing, grounding every aircraft for the slightest issue at the outstations, and taking the fight to the company to drastically improve their operation without anything official from the union.

CAL is a joke. Did you see how UAL and NWA got back work rules after bankruptcy? The pilot groups made the papers and the union did not have to put out a press release other than to say it was not involved.

 

[Whine Lover]

Never mind....Good Luck.

 

[StopNTSing]

We got full retro pay in our new contract. I felt it was imperative based on how long the company intentionally drug out our negotiations, and it would have set a horrible precedent if we let it go without consequences.

PCL, I find it extremely disappointing when pilots think they know what their mgmt can and cannot afford. Don't make their job any easier....they already hold too many of the cards as it is! :angryfire If there's any pilots deserving of retro pay after being slow-rolled by mgmt for way too long, it's you Tranny dudes. Make 'em PAY for the DELAY! :smash:

 

[PCL_128]

I agree that you need to make them pay, but full retro is usually impossible once it drags on for more than a couple of years. Full retro here at AirTran would cost something like $150 million. That's a full third of what they have in cash, and a lot of that cash is really debt. Think that's going to happen? Of course not. We'll get something to make them pay, but full retro just isn't going to happen.

 

[pilotyip]

great idea

tract is the joke.

Pilot groups should be refusing to fly open time, calling in sick in mass, slowing the on-time performance to a crawl with slow flying and slow taxiing, grounding every aircraft for the slightest issue at the outstations, and taking the fight to the company to drastically improve their operation without anything official from the union.

this did wonders for UAL in 2000 did it not?, shut'em down lots of other airlines would love to pick up the flying.