UA "national seniority list"

[densoo]

I would have to strongly disagree with this. The members of the CAL Merger Committee are highly experienced and very qualified. I would put our MC above any other airline's by a long shot. I am fascinated by the fact that there are people who think that an integrated list between CAL and UAL would deviate from relative seniority. Precedent has been set by the DAL/NWA merger. Do you honestly believe that they will integrate the CAL/UAL list by only taking DOH into consideration? Come on.

I appreciate your voice of reason.

But they only have to convince one person, and that's the integration list mediator/arbitrator, and that's what they seem to getting ready to do at some point. At every turn they have shown themselves to be forward thinking and ahead of the game.

When in the last 25 years has the other pilot group not been taken advantage of. Contract after contract, issue after issue, it all seems to be reactionary and behind the eight ball.

It's not the MC that concerns me. I have a great deal of confidence in them and many others in leadership. But the MC, the NC, the MEC can only do as much as the pilots allow them to. And the pilots seem to short circuit the process time and time again to get a bad outcome.

I hope you're right, though.

 

[SuperFLUF]

And well you should. It's not personal, it's just business....

What about principles, morality and ethics?

Scumbags can't hide behind the "its just business.." tripe and think that it covers up the smell.

 

[eaglesview]

All I know is we have to keep debating this topic in depth as I heard the arbitrator will be signing on to this website to make his decision. Isn't it funny that we, "the all powerful UAL pilot group" have changed the ALPA merger policy, c'mon.

Here is a theory AAA/AWA merger occurs under the old policy and it cost ALPA Millions upon Millions in dues when Usair told them take a hike. Maybe just maybe they woke up and realized that longevity does count for something.

That being said in the end an arbitrator will decide if and when it is required. All this debat on here is a waste of time. Pilots post crap on here just to fire up the other pilot group.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Would it have been such a travesty if the TWA or Midex pilots got their DOH when they got bought. Or if Frontier would have gotten DOH from SWA. I think not. That should be the price to pay if you merge. If you do not want to pay that price, do not merge and fight it like Frontier or Delta did. DOH always works in the long run. It is just the short sighted greedy pilot who wants a quick upgrade that is blinded by his greed and sense of entitlement who opposes someones seniority.

M

Surely you can't be that naive about DOH?

 

[densoo]

All this debat on here is a waste of time. Pilots post crap on here just to fire up the other pilot group.

And sometimes it's an attempt to fire up their own pilot group.

 

[chppr5]

What about principles, morality and ethics?

Scumbags can't hide behind the "its just business.." tripe and think that it covers up the smell.

A national seniority list is long over due. You talk about principles, morality and ethics? How about all those Pan Am, Eastern, Midway guys that had to start over at the commuters in the early '90's. I was low time in my class with 3500 hrs, sitting beside 747 captains, 727 captains and DC-9 captains not to mention the wide body F/O's. How about the ATA,TWA, USAir,AMR,UAL,ALOHA and CAL pilots out on the street now that can't take their DOH/longevity to another airline for pay purposes. A national list does not take your seat, but will protect your pay if you have to move to another union carrier. Some day you naysayers may actually benefit from a national list, but until then is all about me me me. Management loves the bickering between pilot groups. Until we ALL start pulling on the same end of the rope to fix this profession the race to the bottom will continue. Imagine being able to make a lateral move, pay wise, in this industry.....what a concept. Progressive thinking will make this a profession again, maybe this will make ALPA National start to think outside the box.

 

[8v8ter]

A national seniority list is long over due. You talk about principles, morality and ethics? How about all those Pan Am, Eastern, Midway guys that had to start over at the commuters in the early '90's. I was low time in my class with 3500 hrs, sitting beside 747 captains, 727 captains and DC-9 captains not to mention the wide body F/O's. How about the ATA,TWA, USAir,AMR,UAL,ALOHA and CAL pilots out on the street now that can't take their DOH/longevity to another airline for pay purposes. A national list does not take your seat, but will protect your pay if you have to move to another union carrier. Some day you naysayers may actually benefit from a national list, but until then is all about me me me. Management loves the bickering between pilot groups. Until we ALL start pulling on the same end of the rope to fix this profession the race to the bottom will continue. Imagine being able to make a lateral move, pay wise, in this industry.....what a concept. Progressive thinking will make this a profession again, maybe this will make ALPA National start to think outside the box.

Bravo!! Do CPA's or engineers or other professionals start at the bottom of a pay scale if their former employer goes under? Yet as airline pilots we have to hope and pray we chose wisely and that our employer doesn't go under or our management, who if they fail move on to higher paying jobs, doesn't run the airline into the ground within the next 20-30 years.

 

[eaglesview]

And sometimes it's an attempt to fire up their own pilot group.

Right, because the majority of said airlines pilot group come here for the latest due to the accuracy of the information here!!??

 

[pianoman]

.....That should be the price to pay if you merge. If you do not want to pay that price, do not merge and fight it like Frontier or Delta did. DOH always works in the long run. It is just the short sighted greedy pilot who wants a quick upgrade that is blinded by his greed and sense of entitlement who opposes someones seniority.

M

Ummm.... as a 2007 CAL hire I am able to hold 737 FO or 757/767 in any base we have, comfortably. A 97 hire is probably in the same position with regards to the left seat.

At United, the 97 hire is a reserve narrow-body FO and a 98 hire is on the street. I don't expect to move up or get a "quick upgrade", but I don't think that wanting to maintain my current status and percentage in base is greedy.

DOH would shove me to the street and bring a UA pilot back in my seat? I don't think that's fair. You are what you were before the merger, after the merger, IMO.

 

[densoo]

Right, because the majority of said airlines pilot group come here for the latest due to the accuracy of the information here!!??

Ha. True enough. Maybe the poster is just trying to fire himself up.

 

[chppr5]

Ummm.... as a 2007 CAL hire I am able to hold 737 FO or 757/767 in any base we have, comfortably. A 97 hire is probably in the same position with regards to the left seat.

At United, the 97 hire is a reserve narrow-body FO and a 98 hire is on the street. I don't expect to move up or get a "quick upgrade", but I don't think that wanting to maintain my current status and percentage in base is greedy.

DOH would shove me to the street and bring a UA pilot back in my seat? I don't think that's fair. You are what you were before the merger, after the merger, IMO.

Thats fine, you guys can keep your seniority at EWR, IAH, CLE and GUM, as long as we have a 5-10 year fence on bases and number of wide body a/c each of us bring to the merger. By the time the fences come down retirements and industry recovery should smooth out integration.....Actually a 98 hire at UAL is a narrow body line holder.

 

[IAHERJ]

Thats fine, you guys can keep your seniority at EWR, IAH, CLE and GUM, as long as we have a 5-10 year fence on bases and number of wide body a/c each of us bring to the merger. By the time the fences come down retirements and industry recovery should smooth out integration.....Actually a 98 hire at UAL is a narrow body line holder.

Sounds good to me. 5 year fence on base and equipment would work and every 787 that comes on property during that time goes to our side of the fence. When the fence comes down, there will most likely be 25 787's on property along with 22 777's and 20 something 767's on the CAL side. Not as many wide-bodies as UAL but a significant increase in the number of wide-bodies on property today at CAL. That equates to career progression/expectations that CAL pilots have today. Combine that with retirements at CAL ramping up again in 2012 and you have a lot of expected movement at CAL. You can't argue with that. I'm all for combining with UAL if it means the industry will stabilize and the combination will be a power player on the world stage. I'm just not buying the argument of DOH from pilots on the street at UAL. I feel for them but am at a loss as to why pilots who have been working their butts off for the past 5 years at CAL should suddenly trade places with them because our two companies decide to merge. I'd like to see a joint venture between the two for the next few years benefit both airlines and recalls at UAL occur. When there are no pilots on furlough, merge the airlines much like NWA/DAL where relative seniority will seem a bit more fair to the UAL guys. Just my opinion as a CAL pilot at around 80% seniority system wide(Full disclosure).

 

[Mamma]

I don't see a national seniority list ever working out. Those that compare our profession to architects, lawyers and doctors in terms of portability and pay are missing a major point.

Here is an example:
A lawyer is brought into a firm out of law school. The lawyer then starts working cases and over time gains experience but most importantly brings money into the firm. The lawyer then wants to go work for another firm. Well, if he did not make his previous firm much money (lost most of his cases), then his compensation package will be small or he will not be hired. If he did well and made his previous firm lots of money then he can command a higher salary. Or maybe the lawyer has a unique skill set that an employer is looking for. The point is, the lawyer's performance is a known and compensation is based of past results. He has differentiated himself from the next guy.

Now comes us airline pilots. All major airline pilots can fly an ILS, run checklists and deal with emergencies. We are all standardized. There is no exceptionalism or rewards for exceptionalism. Say I work for United and want to take advantage of a national seniority list and transfer over to Delta. What do I bring to the table that 5000 other pilots don't have? Why would Delta want to hire me and pay me 10 year scale vs hiring a new guy that can do pretty much what I can do? Not going to happen.

Say my airline goes out of business and I am on the street. I send in a resume to Delta asking them to hire me. Because I am a 10 year FO on the national seniority list, I can command 10 year pay scales. Why would Delta hire me instead of a new first year guy? They won't and we cannot force a company to hire someone they don't want.

We are like bus drivers, taxi drivers and other standardized jobs. If you drive a bus and go to another bus company, you will get the standard starting wage.

 

[CopilotDoug]

One pilot group trying to ******************** over another pilot group. ALPA unity at its best!

 

[waveflyer]

Mamma-
I disagree that that is how a national seniority list would work. If you fly at republic/shuttle/chautaqua- on the USAIr side- you don't interview to be based out of Chicago on the united side- or if you're at CO ewr 737, you don't interview to go to the 777 out of iah -
when there's a spot open it goes in seniority order-
a natioanl seniority list could work the same way w/ a little work and foresight by alpa.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Ummm.... as a 2007 CAL hire I am able to hold 737 FO or 757/767 in any base we have, comfortably. A 97 hire is probably in the same position with regards to the left seat.

At United, the 97 hire is a reserve narrow-body FO and a 98 hire is on the street. I don't expect to move up or get a "quick upgrade", but I don't think that wanting to maintain my current status and percentage in base is greedy.

DOH would shove me to the street and bring a UA pilot back in my seat? I don't think that's fair. You are what you were before the merger, after the merger, IMO.

Well, I don't want to sound like Mr. Roger's but let me help you learn a few 'new words' just three; 'Fences, Conditions and Restrictions'

Any merger/integration of seniority whether done by DOH or otherwise, should contain specific Fences, Conditions and Restrictions; then your concerns are addressed and if done right, offer protection for everyone involved.

As far as a UAL/CAL merger; just a some thoughts from someone who doesn't work for either carrier. But, if done right, could create a Powerful Global carrier; with 'HUGE Asian presence' major market on the west coast of the U.S. (LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA), major hubs in prime markets covering most areas of the country (IAH, ORD, DEN, EWR, etc).

-In short, once the world economy comes back (even if not as strong as it once was, still), a carrier that would be a Strong 'revenue generation' machine. Thus, able to 'pay' higher wages and benefits; then F/O pay would be back to what it once was, so 'if' maybe you had to wait just a few years longer to be 'El Capitan Grande' you would be making much more than just a 'living wage, bus driver pay'

BUT, NOTHING will change as long as it is 'ME ME ME ME' just give me that 'left seat' I Want, I Want, and so on!!!!!!

Just my thoughts, many of the 'so called pilots' on this board makes me SICK, because wayyyyy to many will stab another pilot in the back just to get to that precious 'left seat' and Management will 'laugh their a$$ off' because someday, someday, they know that they can use that pilot that you stabbed in the back, to 'cut your throat'!!!!!! At least a little Truth in all that.

Until ALL pilots in this country work as ONE; this will continue to be 'just a job' (or alittle better than others), but NOT ever again, a PROFESSION.

The Lufthansa pilots went on strike to say, if it say 'LUFTHANSA' on the side of the plane, or on the flight# then it is ALL covered by ONE CONTRACT, peroid!!!!!!

When EVER PILOT in this country 'walks for at least a day or two' to say the same thing!!!! Then I will be impressed.

Sorry for the long 'rant' but thought it had to be said...

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Mamma]

Mamma-
I disagree that that is how a national seniority list would work. If you fly at republic/shuttle/chautaqua- on the USAIr side- you don't interview to be based out of Chicago on the united side- or if you're at CO ewr 737, you don't interview to go to the 777 out of iah -
when there's a spot open it goes in seniority order-
a natioanl seniority list could work the same way w/ a little work and foresight by alpa.

My point was how does ALPA get a company to hire a higher seniority pilot at a higher payscale when they could just as easy hire a new guy? Sure they could get the person interviewed due to his/her seniority but wouldn't the company go with their best interest and hire the cheap guy?

What I would like to see is a standardized payscale based on equipment that removes seniority from the equation. Make longevity/seniority a minor issue relegated to vacations and line bidding.

Example: a national payscale for 737s being $120/hr for FOs and $200/hr for captains. Longevity would provide more vacation days/higher 401 contributions, upgrade, line and vacation bidding. Companies could pay more but the baseline would be set. Unions could negotiate for more also.

This way, if my airline goes out of business and I was a 737 pilot making $120 hr, I could go to another outfit and fly 737s for $120/hr. Benefits and upgrade would be in line with what each individual union negotiates.

Seniority needs to be removed from the pay equation if we want to avoid starting over each time an airline goes under.

 

[C Festerpuss]

One little problem with ALPA is in the organization itself. These critical decisions are made by an executive committee not by the rank and file. Any decision to change anything regarding seniority should go out for membership ratification.

The person missing in this equation is the line pilot.

 

[saabservant]

"Career Expectations/Progression". What a joke, there is NO SUCH THING, in the unregulated, recessionary, post-911 airline world.
At the regional, I "expected" to hold jet Captain in my hometown, but growth at the '"other" regional partner, fleet retirements, and phony bankruptcy killed that.
At UAL, I was told they were hiring 300 after me. That went to being in the last class, to the first of 1400+ furloughs. Now I work in a friggin shopping mall.....

Expectations? very specious in this business. Same word of warning to those building ratings....

The only thing I "expect" now is to be stapled to the bottom of any merger.
What was that Menken quote? Raise the flag and slit throats?.....

 

[nimtz]

National Seniority list. So we are guaranteeing that one airline will pay many training cycles because another folded. Good luck with that one fellas.