Vote NO on ASA PBS

[aircombat]

The company already sweetened the pot to get it out to vote, maybe too much depending on if what I'm hearing is true. Part of me thinks the company wants it voted down, because they know they can get a much better deal (for them) in Section 6.

How many times has a work group voted no on a TA and the second time around ended up with something worse? I know that you guys keep saying that in section 6 the key word is “industry standard”, but then how come after the last section 6 talks you keep saying that we got an “industry leading” contract? The union tries to make themselves sound weak by saying we will be “forced” but that is not the case. We will still be able to vote.

 

[aeropharoh]

no vote from me. seems like instead of trying to limit 4 days we could just get a trip rig. then if they want to build 4 days they will have to pay more than 15.5 hours.. and not that it isnt deserved but why bargain for 6 hours pay for alpa leave, just makes me feel like the pot is sweetened for the select few and not the group. Also dont like the destacking during holiday months of like 50% of the group. So in theory 50% of the pilot group selects there preferences but gets what the company wants them to have because presidents day is a small increase in the number of travelers.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Do you think they will just sit around and wait until the next contract to vote this in again? They would sweeten the pot to get it back.

Don't be so sure...

If this is voted down, it won't come up again until the next contract, and that, gentlemen, is when we will get screwed.

 

[sunlitpath]

Do you have an anger problem? There is help available, but it's not on FI.com.

How about you kiss my butt princess?

 

[IFLYASA]

Don't be so sure...

If this is voted down, it won't come up again until the next contract, and that, gentlemen, is when we will get screwed.

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

 

[Tarzan]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

 

[ILS8L]

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

+1 I think you are absolutely correct. I am voting FOR PBS. I hope for our future that this passes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well said and very much my point. The man never throws ALPA a bone of compliment, just the criticism. While much criticism is deserved, there should be a "but" in there somewhere.

His dissent is invaluable and sorely needed, but let's give some credit to ALPA or unions in general where credit is due.

We can be "Fair and balanced" like FOX NEWS or we can actually be fair and balanced.

On another thread, I told one of the ALPA cheerleaders that I thought the new incoming MEC here at ASA was the best I've seen in 16 years...How's that for a bone. I will give the outgoing MEC credit for finally coming around to reality.

I sincerely think the new MEC will be much more pragmatic than what I have seen from ALPA in the past. I'm looking forward to working with them. We need to acknowledge reality and deal with reality.....Not what we wish would happen...

You've heard me say it before. ALPA has two choices regarding this competition within a brand for flying.

1. Change the game and really enact "brand scope" and/or single lists within a brand.

or

2. We need to compete for new flying and to keep what we have.

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have a sincere question for you. Do you really think that it doesn’t matter that we will be more expensive than Skywest? Do you really think that all business sense will just fly out the window and they will lose money because we will “play ball”? They have already demonstrated that is not the case with the 900 thing a few years ago. Just put yourself in Inc’s shoes. Would you rather make a little money by giving ASA work or make more money by giving it to Skywest. That’s as simple as it can get. This is business.

You mentioned job security. There is a saying that goes “if you can’t beat them, join them”. That’s our only hope at job security. We can’t get cheaper then them, it’s one of the drawbacks of being a senior airline. So our only hope is a merger and without the leverage of PBS if it comes to a merger it will not be favorable for us. Just look at history and what has happened to other airlines in our position.

aircombat, I am one the biggest proponents of a single list...I think it should be a priority. However you aren't going to get for PBS....It is going to cost a lot more than that, and I don't believe most pilots are willing to give up what it would cost. The 3 regionals that have negotiated single lists, gave up quite a bit to get the list.

1. Eagle negotiated the infamous 16 year contract to combine Wings West, Executive, Simmons, and Flagship.

2. Mesa negotiated far below industry standard pay and workrules to combine Freedom with Mesa.

3. Republic/CHQ did the best, but much of their contract is below ours, especially FO pay.

PBS is really more of a bargaining chip for them in the next contract than it is for us because of the concept of "industry standard". They will claim to the NMB that everyone else has PBS and it is the standard. We are already at the top of the heap, and don't have much leverage at this time.

Regarding your question for me, I don't think this will make us cheaper than Skywest. Jerry doesn't WANT to transfer assets and shrink ASA...but I believe he will if we force his hand. There are costs associated with transferring assets and shrinking ASA...That cost has to be factored into the equation.

I believe we can become like the Southwest union, or we can fight like CMR ALPA did during their stike...Which tactic has proven more beneficial?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How many times has a work group voted no on a TA and the second time around ended up with something worse.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two times this happened. The APA/American TA and PSA TA in 2001....Look those up....

In both cases, the first TA was better than final offer/contract.

 

[www.]

I did....do....will....especially when comparing ASA to Peanuckle! At least the vast majority of our pilots speak English.....

9e is a sub-standard operation in the air and on the ground. As soon as Mesa finishes its death spiral into a smoking hole, 9e will be the dregs of the industry.

And in 1....2....3...!

 

[buscap]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

good one

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

Forgive me if you already answered this question but I wasn't going to scan 6 pgs to find it.

You forget that the negotiations process is about give and take. Some believe that if we vote down this TA that the company will buckle and give in to all of our req. to get PBS on property. How many proposals do you believe the PWG turned down from the company b4 they negotiated one they believed would be good for our corp? After all these people will be using this system as well. These are the people WE voted in the rep us at the table.

My question is two fold:
Exactly what parts of the TA are you voting no to and what are you willing to give up to get it?

What I have said earlier still holds true that while this TA isn't perfect (I haven't seen one that is yet) it is a big step up for the QOL in our pilot corp. for those senior and junior as it gives you more ctrl over your life from month to month.

Vote it in now and work with to make improvements during open book rather than wait and get it in during negotiations and be stuck for 5+ years. Don't forget that w/ this TA comes an extension of current contract for 1 year yet negotiations start on time. W/o this TA our contract comes up this year and this isn't a good time to be negotiating anything that includes compensation.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

Wow. Joe, I normally like what you have to say, but comparing yourself to a propagandizing bunch of half-truth tellers is below you, and not helping your cause!

 

[buscap]

Personally I think anyone who is considering voting NO is doing so for some very good and strongly felt reasons.

They are mostly tired of being stuck in the non-upgrade or downgrade cycle, or maybe bitter over the inequities in the reserve and seniority system in general. They see a senior heavy pilot group which has no concern for the junior pilots. 'Junior pilot' once meant someone with less than two years with the company. That is no longer the case due to the perfeact storm of the economy and 65.

These folks understandably are frustrated over unfulfilled career and quality of lfe expectations. I could now go into a long tirade about the dues I've paid and how they should blah blah blah.

But to tell you the truth, I can't blame any for feeling the way they do.

The only thing I can say to them is, in my opinion, they are overestimating the hand we have to play. While we don't have just a pair of twos, we most definitely do not have the royal flush many seem to smell in the cards.

And while things at the bottom of the list do suck, and please forgive the old man in me here, they certainly could suck more. Call your buddies at Comair to talk about that one. Or maybe call some friends at Mesa to find out how they feel about their future.

The point is, do not overestimate our position on this vote. We do have pilots on the street.