Vote NO on ASA PBS

[JoeMerchant]

Dude!!

Ya had to turn it into an ALPA bash!!??

Just couldn't talk about PBS...could ya??

Well, let me ask you this. Which PBS system would you rather work under? The one Skywest has or the one ALPA has negotiated for us?

Those are your only two options, here and in reality. You can't answer my question with a question and you can't come up with another option!!

C'mon!! Answer the question. I know you really wanna answer!!!

I'll answer the question truthfully....

First off, I would rather work under the current line system....I can do better with vacation under it.

That being said, I am voting yes so as to be able to "stay in the game"....

I would rather work under the ALPA PBS, than the Skywest PBS to answer your question.

Now, since I answered your question, can you answer a question for me. Would you rather work under Skywest's PBS and grow, or ASA's PBS and shrink?

Those are your only two options....I know you want to answer.....

By the way...How do you figure that I turned this into an "ALPA bashing" issue?

 

[centralpilot]

I predict that PBS will pass by at least 2/3rd's of the 150 pilots who will vote! That means that 100 pilots of the required majority of 76 of 150, will get to decide how the other 1500+ of us bid out schedules from then to eternity! Somes things are totally predictable!

If 1500+ choose not to vote they don't have the right to complain about the outcome. I tend to think this vote will see a little more participation than the furlough fund vote though.

 

[aircombat]

PBS won't make us less expensive than Skywest....nobody is saying it will. This vote comes down to one thing....Whether or not we are willing to work with Jerry...We don't have to be the cheapest...We don't have to be cheaper than Skywest....We do have to work with Jerry, or he will take his ball home.

The most job security we have is through the contracts that Jerry negotiated with both Delta and United....How much has ALPA achieved in the "job security" department....

As pilots, we are tought to look ahead and look at all the possible outcomes...What are the possible outcomes to Jerry deciding that ASA ALPA can't be dealt with?

I have a sincere question for you. Do you really think that it doesn’t matter that we will be more expensive than Skywest? Do you really think that all business sense will just fly out the window and they will lose money because we will “play ball”? They have already demonstrated that is not the case with the 900 thing a few years ago. Just put yourself in Inc’s shoes. Would you rather make a little money by giving ASA work or make more money by giving it to Skywest. That’s as simple as it can get. This is business.

You mentioned job security. There is a saying that goes “if you can’t beat them, join them”. That’s our only hope at job security. We can’t get cheaper then them, it’s one of the drawbacks of being a senior airline. So our only hope is a merger and without the leverage of PBS if it comes to a merger it will not be favorable for us. Just look at history and what has happened to other airlines in our position.

 

[i fly boxes]

Alright fair enough, Sorry for the post but in regards to Pinnacle taking over for mesa, I have to disagree with you there. If we would have voted the TA in then you would have every right to say that but we are trying over here. It just so happens that we have not shut the airline down yet to get the contract in place. It is very, very hard to do that in the bases we operate in, especially with the old NWA block times. Now that we have a significant presence in ATL maybe that would be easier. As far as our management goes, we were not lucky enough to be bought by skywest, we have what we have. I almost wish someone would buy our half of the operation and let the crooks deal with colgan but maybe due to this investigation they will all get tossed or something, I don't know.

 

[buscap]

I'll answer the question truthfully....

First off, I would rather work under the current line system....I can do better with vacation under it.

That being said, I am voting yes so as to be able to "stay in the game"....

I would rather work under the ALPA PBS, than the Skywest PBS to answer your question.

Now, since I answered your question, can you answer a question for me. Would you rather work under Skywest's PBS and grow, or ASA's PBS and shrink?

Those are your only two options....I know you want to answer.....

By the way...How do you figure that I turned this into an "ALPA bashing" issue?

1. Answer to part of your first unfair question: I would rather operate under the ASA PBS, but I don't think we'll shrink as a result. I'm not claiming we'll grow either. And by the way, there is a term for a question with self disqualifying rhetorical elements, but I can't remember it. At least my question was fair!!

2. Your ALPA bash consisted of: The most job security we have is through the contracts that Jerry negotiated with both Delta and United....How much has ALPA achieved in the "job security" department....

The Delta and Jerry part is true, but you could also ask "What has ALPA done to cure cancer?" Stupid question, but it works as a slam on ALPA by making them look like an organization that kicks puppies and hates old people.

How about a compliment about what our MEC has negotiated? How about a compliment about their ability to work with management on this one?

How about mentioning there is a good chance this system will migrate over to the Skywest side in some form as another preemptive move to keep a union off their property? Another benefit for the Skywest side at our expense, maybe?

It is obvious we are definitely the current beneficiaries of many years of fantastic productivity and cooperation between Skywest management and their pilots. If not for their collective performance, we would be a southern version of Comair, or worse.

But as important as that recognition is, it is also important to recognize our impact on the Skywest pilot group. They have enjoyed a slight raising of the bar due to our efforts and stand to do even better if this PBS LOA passes at ASA.

Your points are spot on, but sometimes you really peeeess me off with all the griping about ALPA while you know very well the level of pay and QOL we have is very much due to that very organization's effort at both the local and national level. And while ALPA is a hydra with many heads, some not so pretty, positive recognition is due.

Any hope of fair debate mandates a spaghetti western view of things: (good, bad, ugly)

 

[buscap]

And another thing Joe!!

Did you go to a road show and get the vacation thing explained?

It was much better than I thought.

 

[Speedtape]

i did not perceive an ALPA bash from Joe. As he stated CLEARLY, ASA pilot job security, IF there is any, is related to the marketing agreement that was signed with Delta and confirmed by the Bankruptcy Judge. That is an accepted truth.

 

[buscap]

That is what I said, if you would only read my post. But I also said there is no reason to turn that well made point into an ALPA bash.

All jobs and their respective security originate with business. ALPA and unions in general give us the ability to conduct collective bargaining, protected as an expression of free speech. This is very much the same option many highly paid executives and other employees have, when working under contracts. The unions simply extend this same option to a collective group.

But like I said, Joe's ALPA slam was: The most job security we have is through the contracts that Jerry negotiated with both Delta and United....How much has ALPA achieved in the "job security" department....

The Delta and Jerry part is true, but you could also ask "What has ALPA done to cure cancer?" Stupid question, but it works as a slam on ALPA by making them look like an organization that kicks puppies and hates old people.



That sir, is an ALPA slam. And by itself, not very important.

 

[Tarzan]

This tent is big enough for an anti-ALPA train of thought. I'd rather have some guys like that in the room than a bunch of guys who will nod their heads in continue to march on in lock step. I believe that we stamp out any dissent in this regard, we are ultimately hurting ourselves. Without those voices, who is going point out the cliff that may being our path? Just like the angry anti PBS guy in the crew room, don't shut them up. Take an honest look at what they have to say. Be objective about it. Dissenting voices are sometimes just that, angry. But other times, they offer valuable insight.

Buscap, did ALPA truly get the job security issue taken care of or was it a team effort from the union and company to work together? Joe's point is that ALPA can not accomplish anything on its own. It must have a complicit counter part or nothing happens. I'll give credit where both sides have truly made an effort to work together to have a situation in which both sides come out ahead.

 

[buscap]

This tent is big enough for an anti-ALPA train of thought. I'd rather have some guys like that in the room than a bunch of guys who will nod their heads in continue to march on in lock step. I believe that we stamp out any dissent in this regard, we are ultimately hurting ourselves. Without those voices, who is going point out the cliff that may being our path? Just like the angry anti PBS guy in the crew room, don't shut them up. Take an honest look at what they have to say. Be objective about it. Dissenting voices are sometimes just that, angry. But other times, they offer valuable insight.

Buscap, did ALPA truly get the job security issue taken care of or was it a team effort from the union and company to work together? Joe's point is that ALPA can not accomplish anything on its own. It must have a complicit counter part or nothing happens. I'll give credit where both sides have truly made an effort to work together to have a situation in which both sides come out ahead.

Well said and very much my point. The man never throws ALPA a bone of compliment, just the criticism. While much criticism is deserved, there should be a "but" in there somewhere.

His dissent is invaluable and sorely needed, but let's give some credit to ALPA or unions in general where credit is due.

We can be "Fair and balanced" like FOX NEWS or we can actually be fair and balanced.

 

[IFLYASA]

I am a no voter. This will probably pass, but if it doesn't, think of the millions the company would not be saving. Do you think they will just sit around and wait until the next contract to vote this in again? They would sweeten the pot to get it back.

However, this is not my reason for a no vote. I have my reasons.

 

[sunlitpath]

Don't get your hopes about your demands being met. Plus, that is just the dumbest sounding thing, "we demand......." Just sounds desperate.

That being said, you'll like PBS. Lots of friends like it.

What the hell do you think union talks are? Do you think it's tea time and friendly banter? No, it is often a threat to strike if demands are not met. I pray that you are not an MEC contract negotiator. Nobody cares if your stupid friends like PBS. They don't work at ASA. We will make up our own minds.

 

[Speedtape]

What the hell do you think union talks are? Do you think it's tea time and friendly banter? No, it is often a threat to strike if demands are not met. I pray that you are not an MEC contract negotiator. Nobody cares if your stupid friends like PBS. They don't work at ASA. We will make up our own minds.

Do you have an anger problem? There is help available, but it's not on FI.com.

 

[buscap]

Well everyone, sorry for the tangent.....

The main point is the vote. Think about it. It's an important one.

Whether or not the union gets credit for their part is ultimately unimportant.

 

[sweptback]

I am a no voter. This will probably pass, but if it doesn't, think of the millions the company would not be saving. Do you think they will just sit around and wait until the next contract to vote this in again? They would sweeten the pot to get it back.

The company already sweetened the pot to get it out to vote, maybe too much depending on if what I'm hearing is true. Part of me thinks the company wants it voted down, because they know they can get a much better deal (for them) in Section 6.

 

[aircombat]

The company already sweetened the pot to get it out to vote, maybe too much depending on if what I'm hearing is true. Part of me thinks the company wants it voted down, because they know they can get a much better deal (for them) in Section 6.

How many times has a work group voted no on a TA and the second time around ended up with something worse? I know that you guys keep saying that in section 6 the key word is “industry standard”, but then how come after the last section 6 talks you keep saying that we got an “industry leading” contract? The union tries to make themselves sound weak by saying we will be “forced” but that is not the case. We will still be able to vote.

 

[aeropharoh]

no vote from me. seems like instead of trying to limit 4 days we could just get a trip rig. then if they want to build 4 days they will have to pay more than 15.5 hours.. and not that it isnt deserved but why bargain for 6 hours pay for alpa leave, just makes me feel like the pot is sweetened for the select few and not the group. Also dont like the destacking during holiday months of like 50% of the group. So in theory 50% of the pilot group selects there preferences but gets what the company wants them to have because presidents day is a small increase in the number of travelers.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Do you think they will just sit around and wait until the next contract to vote this in again? They would sweeten the pot to get it back.

Don't be so sure...

If this is voted down, it won't come up again until the next contract, and that, gentlemen, is when we will get screwed.

 

[sunlitpath]

Do you have an anger problem? There is help available, but it's not on FI.com.

How about you kiss my butt princess?

 

[IFLYASA]

Don't be so sure...

If this is voted down, it won't come up again until the next contract, and that, gentlemen, is when we will get screwed.

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

 

[Tarzan]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

 

[ILS8L]

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

+1 I think you are absolutely correct. I am voting FOR PBS. I hope for our future that this passes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well said and very much my point. The man never throws ALPA a bone of compliment, just the criticism. While much criticism is deserved, there should be a "but" in there somewhere.

His dissent is invaluable and sorely needed, but let's give some credit to ALPA or unions in general where credit is due.

We can be "Fair and balanced" like FOX NEWS or we can actually be fair and balanced.

On another thread, I told one of the ALPA cheerleaders that I thought the new incoming MEC here at ASA was the best I've seen in 16 years...How's that for a bone. I will give the outgoing MEC credit for finally coming around to reality.

I sincerely think the new MEC will be much more pragmatic than what I have seen from ALPA in the past. I'm looking forward to working with them. We need to acknowledge reality and deal with reality.....Not what we wish would happen...

You've heard me say it before. ALPA has two choices regarding this competition within a brand for flying.

1. Change the game and really enact "brand scope" and/or single lists within a brand.

or

2. We need to compete for new flying and to keep what we have.

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have a sincere question for you. Do you really think that it doesn’t matter that we will be more expensive than Skywest? Do you really think that all business sense will just fly out the window and they will lose money because we will “play ball”? They have already demonstrated that is not the case with the 900 thing a few years ago. Just put yourself in Inc’s shoes. Would you rather make a little money by giving ASA work or make more money by giving it to Skywest. That’s as simple as it can get. This is business.

You mentioned job security. There is a saying that goes “if you can’t beat them, join them”. That’s our only hope at job security. We can’t get cheaper then them, it’s one of the drawbacks of being a senior airline. So our only hope is a merger and without the leverage of PBS if it comes to a merger it will not be favorable for us. Just look at history and what has happened to other airlines in our position.

aircombat, I am one the biggest proponents of a single list...I think it should be a priority. However you aren't going to get for PBS....It is going to cost a lot more than that, and I don't believe most pilots are willing to give up what it would cost. The 3 regionals that have negotiated single lists, gave up quite a bit to get the list.

1. Eagle negotiated the infamous 16 year contract to combine Wings West, Executive, Simmons, and Flagship.

2. Mesa negotiated far below industry standard pay and workrules to combine Freedom with Mesa.

3. Republic/CHQ did the best, but much of their contract is below ours, especially FO pay.

PBS is really more of a bargaining chip for them in the next contract than it is for us because of the concept of "industry standard". They will claim to the NMB that everyone else has PBS and it is the standard. We are already at the top of the heap, and don't have much leverage at this time.

Regarding your question for me, I don't think this will make us cheaper than Skywest. Jerry doesn't WANT to transfer assets and shrink ASA...but I believe he will if we force his hand. There are costs associated with transferring assets and shrinking ASA...That cost has to be factored into the equation.

I believe we can become like the Southwest union, or we can fight like CMR ALPA did during their stike...Which tactic has proven more beneficial?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How many times has a work group voted no on a TA and the second time around ended up with something worse.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two times this happened. The APA/American TA and PSA TA in 2001....Look those up....

In both cases, the first TA was better than final offer/contract.

 

[www.]

I did....do....will....especially when comparing ASA to Peanuckle! At least the vast majority of our pilots speak English.....

9e is a sub-standard operation in the air and on the ground. As soon as Mesa finishes its death spiral into a smoking hole, 9e will be the dregs of the industry.

And in 1....2....3...!

 

[buscap]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

good one

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

Forgive me if you already answered this question but I wasn't going to scan 6 pgs to find it.

You forget that the negotiations process is about give and take. Some believe that if we vote down this TA that the company will buckle and give in to all of our req. to get PBS on property. How many proposals do you believe the PWG turned down from the company b4 they negotiated one they believed would be good for our corp? After all these people will be using this system as well. These are the people WE voted in the rep us at the table.

My question is two fold:
Exactly what parts of the TA are you voting no to and what are you willing to give up to get it?

What I have said earlier still holds true that while this TA isn't perfect (I haven't seen one that is yet) it is a big step up for the QOL in our pilot corp. for those senior and junior as it gives you more ctrl over your life from month to month.

Vote it in now and work with to make improvements during open book rather than wait and get it in during negotiations and be stuck for 5+ years. Don't forget that w/ this TA comes an extension of current contract for 1 year yet negotiations start on time. W/o this TA our contract comes up this year and this isn't a good time to be negotiating anything that includes compensation.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

Wow. Joe, I normally like what you have to say, but comparing yourself to a propagandizing bunch of half-truth tellers is below you, and not helping your cause!

 

[buscap]

Personally I think anyone who is considering voting NO is doing so for some very good and strongly felt reasons.

They are mostly tired of being stuck in the non-upgrade or downgrade cycle, or maybe bitter over the inequities in the reserve and seniority system in general. They see a senior heavy pilot group which has no concern for the junior pilots. 'Junior pilot' once meant someone with less than two years with the company. That is no longer the case due to the perfeact storm of the economy and 65.

These folks understandably are frustrated over unfulfilled career and quality of lfe expectations. I could now go into a long tirade about the dues I've paid and how they should blah blah blah.

But to tell you the truth, I can't blame any for feeling the way they do.

The only thing I can say to them is, in my opinion, they are overestimating the hand we have to play. While we don't have just a pair of twos, we most definitely do not have the royal flush many seem to smell in the cards.

And while things at the bottom of the list do suck, and please forgive the old man in me here, they certainly could suck more. Call your buddies at Comair to talk about that one. Or maybe call some friends at Mesa to find out how they feel about their future.

The point is, do not overestimate our position on this vote. We do have pilots on the street.