Vote NO on ASA PBS

[SLUF4]

I just don't like giving in because I feel like they've been dumping crap schedules on us and preaching doom and gloom for the last year to make us vote this in. But I'm not sure we do have a choice in this current economy. When's the vote open?

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

I have had those exact same thoughts SLUF. Many people I have spoken with feel the same way. I'm basing my decision on what seems (to me) to be the best choice in the long run....IMHO

 

[buscap]

We have pbs at 9e and here are somethings i can tell you
If the pairings are crap - your schedule will be crap
Highspeeds will be mixed in with your normal lines if there are enough of them to do that.
Some months our average days of for all line holders will be 15-16, some months half way down the list will get minimum days off with very unproductive schedules.
you have no idea what you will get until the schedule is awarded
Pref bid is GREAT for senior people but absolutely terrible for junior people.
If you are a junior person it doesnt matter what you put, and I am not exagerating.
Just remember, if it saves ASA money and allows you to be more competitive than so be it, but i would get WHATEVER YOU CAN in return for allowing the company to do this.
Good luck

As per the LOA our standups are kept separate.

We also have quite a few other protections; 4 days capped at 60%, no globalization, vacation maximized for pay or time off, and many others...

It's not perfect, but it does seem to be better than any other system out there; not just the Flightline system, the LOA we negotiated.

 

[JumpersAway]

I just don't like giving in because I feel like they've been dumping crap schedules on us and preaching doom and gloom for the last year to make us vote this in. But I'm not sure we do have a choice in this current economy. When's the vote open?

I hear ya' SLUF. Like you, I wasn't keen to the idea either. However, from where I sit, and from what I see, it just makes sense to do it now, rather than later.

In regard to the crap schedules- no rebuttle here. Our choice pick of four days has been absurd, at best. However, the quandry lies back with the company. The schedules were horrible, and I'm thinking that if this is voted down, they will be much, much worse, if for nothing more than to prove a point. Unfortunately with line bidding, the company is making the lines................

ASA is out to save money, one way or the other, and this seems to be better than just blindly putting our scheduling future in their hands with their creation of our lines.

 

[centralpilot]

We have pbs at 9e and here are somethings i can tell you
If the pairings are crap - your schedule will be crap
Highspeeds will be mixed in with your normal lines if there are enough of them to do that.

CDOs (highspeeds) will not be mixed with normal lines in the proposed system. CDO bidding will be separate with provisions to switch to bidding CDOs in groups or complete lines if bidding on the pairings individually doesn't work as intended.

Crappy pairings equating to crappy schedules is no different than our current situation. A 60% cap on 4-day pairings is something at least, and you'll be hard pressed to find concrete trip construction language in any airline CBA. Airlines don't want to surrender control of their schedule to their labor groups, especially regionals who are at the mercy of their mainline parter's schedule requirements. That is why duty-rigs exist: to motivate the company to build more efficient pairings or at least pay you when they don't.

 

[centralpilot]

I just don't like giving in because I feel like they've been dumping crap schedules on us and preaching doom and gloom for the last year to make us vote this in. But I'm not sure we do have a choice in this current economy. When's the vote open?

The vote is open February 18 and closes March 10.

 

[i fly boxes]

look just posting what i know about ours trying to help. We all know that ASA is the greatest airline in the world and that anyone that does a flight in ATL is the enemy so I am sorry, I should have figured that you guys have it under control.

PS make sure you put avoid deadheads to Vietnam!

 

[79%N1]

Nobody said anything about ASA being the greatest airline in the world, or better than your airline!

You put out there the perils of PBS, as you know it. The reply's you are getting are to the fact that the system ASA is possibly getting is 100% different from the one at 9E, or Skywest, Continental or even Delta. You said this is what PBS is/does and the replies were to refute that under ASA's proposed system none of those apply! Why? Because we are in a uniqe situation to agree to a system more beneficial to our pilot group than most others that have PBS. Sorry if you are jealous of that system, but no need to reply with your glib remarks.

Oh, and I certainly will avoid that deadhead. thanks for the advice.

 

[maxcackel]

100% different? Really?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

18% different.

 

[maxcackel]

That's more like it.

 

[centralpilot]

look just posting what i know about ours trying to help. We all know that ASA is the greatest airline in the world and that anyone that does a flight in ATL is the enemy so I am sorry, I should have figured that you guys have it under control.

PS make sure you put avoid deadheads to Vietnam!

Simmer down. You warned of a pitfall with PBS at your company and I simply pointed out that our proposed LOA would not share that particular problem. I'm eager to learn of other problems with PBS at other airlines so that I can see if they have been properly addressed in our LOA.

 

[wms]

It's the first thing I'll vote yes on at ASA.

 

[silverfish]

Can someone explain why you think it is coming no matter what in the next round of negotiations.

 

[79%N1]

Because management WILL NOT sign any new contract that does not contain PBS, and no mediator will side with us in that matter when EVERY other DCI carrier has PBS, and has a much inferior product than we were originally offered.

 

[wms]

Because sec6 contract negotiations are done differently than our PBS negotiations. In sec6 the company will approach the mediator/arbitrator and petition for what is the industry standard, which is a lot worse than what we can get now.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I almost wish you "no" people win, and it gets voted down so you can get a worse PBS shoved down your throat in a couple years. Of course, that would suck for those of us who wanted to vote yes, so I guess I'll be happy when it succeeds, but you guys really need a dose of reality.

 

[gator_hater]

I almost wish you "no" people win, and it gets voted down so you can get a worse PBS shoved down your throat in a couple years. Of course, that would suck for those of us who wanted to vote yes, so I guess I'll be happy when it succeeds, but you guys really need a dose of reality.

I had the some conversation on my flight this evening.

 

[ohplease!]

Nobody said anything about ASA being the greatest airline in the world, or better than your airline!

I did....do....will....especially when comparing ASA to Peanuckle! At least the vast majority of our pilots speak English.....

9e is a sub-standard operation in the air and on the ground. As soon as Mesa finishes its death spiral into a smoking hole, 9e will be the dregs of the industry.

 

[buscap]

I did....do....will....especially when comparing ASA to Peanuckle! At least the vast majority of our pilots speak English.....

9e is a sub-standard operation in the air and on the ground. As soon as Mesa finishes its death spiral into a smoking hole, 9e will be the dregs of the industry.

You forgot about TSA. They also qualify.

 

[airtime4]

This must be how the monkey felt just before he stuck his hand into the hole for food...unfortunately this monkey will never see his hand again....

 

[Speedtape]

Just for the record and all you Wannabee Speedtapes on the ALPA Board, I am Speedtape!

I predict that PBS will pass by at least 2/3rd's of the 150 pilots who will vote! That means that 100 pilots of the required majority of 76 of 150, will get to decide how the other 1500+ of us bid out schedules from then to eternity! Somes things are totally predictable!

 

[79%N1]

Just for the record and all you Wannabee Speedtapes on the ALPA Board, I am Speedtape!

I predict that PBS will pass by at least 2/3rd's of the 150 pilots who will vote! That means that 100 pilots of the required majority of 76 of 150, will get to decide how the other 1500+ of us bid out schedules from then to eternity! Somes things are totally predictable!

Sad, but oh so true!

 

[buscap]

Just for the record and all you Wannabee Speedtapes on the ALPA Board, I am Speedtape!

You are so NOT Speedtape.

Speedtape is much taller...and much better looking.

 

[aircombat]

If you guys want to vote in PBS you better be doing it for the merits of PBS and not its potential for creating “growth”. I would be absolutely amazed if the pennies that this will save will make a lick of difference. And if it does then it will most certainly be temporary because there are no winners in the fight for the bottom.
I can’t believe how you guys bash people that have experience using PBS instead of trying to get constructive information from them. I would like to apologize to i fly boxes for the rudeness of some of our pilots on this board. I’m hoping they are the vocal minority.
They most certainly have not read this LOA carefully. It really is not any different than any PBS system out there. Everything they mention has non biding language or loop holes. Also what makes flight line software so much superior? The premise behind PBS is so basic it’s sad. Like the union has been saying its logic is transparent. The only thing different with the software would be the preferences available. I doubt that there are significant differences in softwares for PBS. Regarding all the loose language the only thing they can say is we will take it now and try to make it better later. I have an idea, why don’t we keep the good system that we have now and not try to make garbage better over the next 10 years.
I went to the roadshow and just like when the LOA came out I wasn’t pleasantly surprised like all of you implied we would be. If you read through the LOA a few times you will probably understand it better than the union reps. The only thing I got out of the roadshow is that the reps didn’t even know about some things in this LOA. How is that possible? Who wrote this thing? How can they not know about a whole paragraph? If that wasn’t sad enough it became clear that they don’t even understand the current contract. They spent at least 5 minutes patting themselves on the back for negotiating a “seniority based reserve system” in the current contract. I’m not saying that they didn’t make improvements to the system but believe me we don’t have a “seniority based reserve system”. It is actually a credit based reserve system. Big difference, and essentially would have been how it was run before if scheduling was smart. I did get them to semi admit that they were not telling a complete truth in saying that the company “couldn’t save a dime with PBS unless we grow”. They did have a bunch of excuses and I’m sure that they are still using that one.
Again please don’t vote for PBS to be “competitive”. Remember what happened with the 900s. Once you vote in PBS and management “suddenly” realizes we are still more expensive than Skywest the same thing will happen again. We never learn. Good luck to all.

 

[ohplease!]

Just for the record and all you Wannabee Speedtapes on the ALPA Board, I am Speedtape!

I knew speedtape. speedtape was a friend of mine. you sir, are no speedtape!

sorry. couldn't resist. But, you're right about the vote!

 

[samballs]

We have pbs at 9e and here are somethings i can tell you
If the pairings are crap - your schedule will be crap
Highspeeds will be mixed in with your normal lines if there are enough of them to do that.
Some months our average days of for all line holders will be 15-16, some months half way down the list will get minimum days off with very unproductive schedules.
you have no idea what you will get until the schedule is awarded
Pref bid is GREAT for senior people but absolutely terrible for junior people.
If you are a junior person it doesnt matter what you put, and I am not exagerating.
Just remember, if it saves ASA money and allows you to be more competitive than so be it, but i would get WHATEVER YOU CAN in return for allowing the company to do this.
Good luck

Wow 9E has to be the worse place to work, only other outsourser I have heard of having CDO's mixed in lines is Skyway and there gone, so that leaves you.

 

[samballs]

For anyones saying PBS creates jobs is sorely mistaken. It does the exact opposite, not much but it does take jobs away, no furlough will comeback due to just PBS

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you guys want to vote in PBS you better be doing it for the merits of PBS and not its potential for creating “growth”. I would be absolutely amazed if the pennies that this will save will make a lick of difference. And if it does then it will most certainly be temporary because there are no winners in the fight for the bottom.
I can’t believe how you guys bash people that have experience using PBS instead of trying to get constructive information from them. I would like to apologize to i fly boxes for the rudeness of some of our pilots on this board. I’m hoping they are the vocal minority.
They most certainly have not read this LOA carefully. It really is not any different than any PBS system out there. Everything they mention has non biding language or loop holes. Also what makes flight line software so much superior? The premise behind PBS is so basic it’s sad. Like the union has been saying its logic is transparent. The only thing different with the software would be the preferences available. I doubt that there are significant differences in softwares for PBS. Regarding all the loose language the only thing they can say is we will take it now and try to make it better later. I have an idea, why don’t we keep the good system that we have now and not try to make garbage better over the next 10 years.
I went to the roadshow and just like when the LOA came out I wasn’t pleasantly surprised like all of you implied we would be. If you read through the LOA a few times you will probably understand it better than the union reps. The only thing I got out of the roadshow is that the reps didn’t even know about some things in this LOA. How is that possible? Who wrote this thing? How can they not know about a whole paragraph? If that wasn’t sad enough it became clear that they don’t even understand the current contract. They spent at least 5 minutes patting themselves on the back for negotiating a “seniority based reserve system” in the current contract. I’m not saying that they didn’t make improvements to the system but believe me we don’t have a “seniority based reserve system”. It is actually a credit based reserve system. Big difference, and essentially would have been how it was run before if scheduling was smart. I did get them to semi admit that they were not telling a complete truth in saying that the company “couldn’t save a dime with PBS unless we grow”. They did have a bunch of excuses and I’m sure that they are still using that one.
Again please don’t vote for PBS to be “competitive”. Remember what happened with the 900s. Once you vote in PBS and management “suddenly” realizes we are still more expensive than Skywest the same thing will happen again. We never learn. Good luck to all.

PBS won't make us less expensive than Skywest....nobody is saying it will. This vote comes down to one thing....Whether or not we are willing to work with Jerry...We don't have to be the cheapest...We don't have to be cheaper than Skywest....We do have to work with Jerry, or he will take his ball home.

The most job security we have is through the contracts that Jerry negotiated with both Delta and United....How much has ALPA achieved in the "job security" department....

As pilots, we are tought to look ahead and look at all the possible outcomes...What are the possible outcomes to Jerry deciding that ASA ALPA can't be dealt with?

 

[buscap]

PBS won't make us less expensive than Skywest....nobody is saying it will. This vote comes down to one thing....Whether or not we are willing to work with Jerry...We don't have to be the cheapest...We don't have to be cheaper than Skywest....We do have to work with Jerry, or he will take his ball home.

The most job security we have is through the contracts that Jerry negotiated with both Delta and United....How much has ALPA achieved in the "job security" department....

As pilots, we are tought to look ahead and look at all the possible outcomes...What are the possible outcomes to Jerry deciding that ASA ALPA can't be dealt with?

Dude!!

Ya had to turn it into an ALPA bash!!??

Just couldn't talk about PBS...could ya??

Well, let me ask you this. Which PBS system would you rather work under? The one Skywest has or the one ALPA has negotiated for us?

Those are your only two options, here and in reality. You can't answer my question with a question and you can't come up with another option!!

C'mon!! Answer the question. I know you really wanna answer!!!