Flight options new pay

[Alaska82]

3.5% every year wait -1.5% dues. So 2.0% increase in pay per year. The average rate of inflation is 3.0% per year. so the question is are you really getting a pay raise or are you just not losing as much every year?

If dues where decreased to 0.5% we could at least brake even. the ta does have some good work rules. i think the junior guys got sold out 16+2 schedule.

 

[993_Pilot]

Go ahead and vote NO, so we can then start all over again and be stuck with the pay we have now and NO job protections for another three years. It is more than just the pay. Also, you need a reality check- the economy SUCKS. Or we could demand and get a 40% pay raise and have the company go bankrupt in a few months and you can take a 75% pay-cut when you collect your unemployment check.

How bout reading the TA first before you make your decision.
We get an immediate 10%, and 3.5% each year, and quarterly pay rasises as things improve for the economy and our managed hours increase. So, we may end up with a 20% raise within the first third of the contract.

I am also a MIGS.

If it was a 2 year contract, I might be willing to vote yes just for the work rules and protection, but this is a minimum 3 year contract, up to 5 years, at managements discretion, and management only has to give up an additional 3.5%/year and bring the 7/7 ratio up to 15, then 20%. I refuse to vote yes when at the end of 5 years I would still make less than all the other companies are now, still won't be able to hold a 7/7 line, have no 401K matching, and get very little extra PTO from what I have now, etc. hell 3.5% annual raise is mearly a cost of living increas, not a real raise! I am really hoping that the summary was just poorly written or that I am missing something, because based on my understanding of it now, I am inclined to vote NO.

 

[greygoose]

If dues where decreased to 0.5% we could at least brake even. the ta does have some good work rules. i think the junior guys got sold out 16+2 schedule.

16+2 is more likely going to go senior due to higher pay. They must notify you at least 1/2 month ahead of time your schedule.

 

[I'Zheet M'Drarz]

The upside is you read the contract, the whole contract. Im pretty sure your not going to be "forced" on a crazy 16-2 schedule. Get your facts straight. And that "POS" BJ pays the bills, or are you too good for that plane. I do feel for your plight, the industry sucks, but a plane is a plane. Your attitude sounds like "SNJ" shinny new jet syndrome.

Involuntary Assignment to the 16+2 Schedule
•
If an insufficient number of pilots bid the 16+2 Schedule, the Company may involuntarily assign on the basis of inverse seniority up to 10 percent of pilots in a fleet and status, less the number of pilots awarded the 16+2 Schedule.

First, this is what I read. Second when you subtract the 401k matching and the 1.5% dues you will not see a net gain from a 10% raise. Third why are you so defensive, if you can't be intellectually honest about true gains and losses, then how can anything be discussed.

 

[jetwash]

My take on is that the pilots never got all they wanted and the company never got all it wanted.

The problem for the company now is that this TA will not increase morale or the productivity and support they think it will from the pilot group.

If it passes they will have a group of underpaid unhappy pilots with continued low morale with a contract that protects them.
I for one am not happy with the pay either but, I can assure you that I will take full advantage of everything the contract has to offer to my maximum benefit so as to get everything I can out of it.

It seems to me that the company thinks that things will go back to the way they were in 1998-2000.
They are sadly mistaken, those days are long gone.

 

[ITFL]

Wow guys I read the summary... my heart goes out to you all. While there are some definite improvements to work rules and scope, the pay is an overwhelming disappointment and an embarrassment not to mention the benefits and 401k! The negotiating committee can talk about the hard times & ramifications of the US economy all they want... I left flops 2 1/2 years ago and the company I'm at now recently revisited pay rates and brought them up to INDUSTRY STANDARD despite the recession (for my position a 30+% raise).

DON'T settle for less than you are worth! After fighting so long, I know everyone wants to put it behind them but you have to live with it for the life of the contract (3 years... or 5 at flops discretion). Vote with your heads and not your hearts. Keep up the good fight, it's a great group of pilots on the property you're worth so much more!

Really? Do those “INDUSTRY STANDARD” wages come with Scope protections? How about duty and rest rules? Do you get overtime for getting home late? Will your company compensate you with an additional day off if they screw you on your go-home day? Do you get overtime if they get you up too early on your first day of work? Can your company violate your rest and call you at all hours of the night and on your days off the let you know you have trips? Is your seniority protected in a legally enforceable document? If you are furloughed, can you expect furlough pay or recall rights? How many crew bases can you choose from? If you take a leave of absence will your job, let alone your seniority and longevity be guaranteed upon your return? How many schedule types do you have to choose from and can your management change them? Do you get a company credit card to use for meals while on the road, so you can pocket all of your per-diem? Can your company change your health insurance benefits at their sole discretion?

Last and most importantly, if you cross that ever invisible line while at work, can you be disciplined or terminated without just cause? Do you have the right to representation in the event of discipline? Will a System Board sit to hear your appeal when they discharge you? How long is your contract good for?

Easy for you to say, “Keep up the good fight” when you slunk away “2 ½ years ago” to avoid that fight.

 

[Flex-ible]

3.5% every year wait -1.5% dues. So 2.0% increase in pay per year. The average rate of inflation is 3.0% per year. so the question is are you really getting a pay raise or are you just not losing as much every year?

If dues where decreased to 0.5% we could at least brake even. the ta does have some good work rules. i think the junior guys got sold out 16+2 schedule.

I don't have a dog in this fight...but your math is wrong, unless the dues percentage goes up every year:

Year 1: $100 - $1.50 dues = $98.50
Year 2: $103.50 - $1.55 dues = $101.95 Still 3.5% raise
Year 3: $107.12 - $1.61 dues = $105.51 Still 3.5% raise

Not saying it's good, but from the sidelines....it beats a sharp stick in the eye!

 

[ITFL]

Put down the pipe

I think you guys are all smoking crack. The union just sent out an announcement that indicates the following total percent cumulative raises for Captains, over the full five year term of the contract. BJ, 35.23%, Hawker, 46.57%, Citation X, 55.88% and Legacy, 46.80%. Now I know, it’s only 10% up front and I’m not happy about that, but I’m a Hawker guy and a 46% raise over 5 years sounds pretty good to me. We also get retro pay, looks like about a $1200 lump sum check for me. On January 1st 2011 my total cumulative raise will be over 20%.

Now add to all of this the fact that we will no longer be at-will employees, with everything that implies, will have 6 more PTO days and 25% of our pilots on a 7&7 schedule by the end of the contract, will get OT for duty on, before 6am on day one (effectively for airlines scheduled before 7:30am, think about it), OT if they get us home after 0130am on our go home day, an extra day off if we get home after 12noon on day nine (I know it’s happened to me), no more 16hr day on go home day, the ability to shut it down after 14, no questions asked, during the tour, vacation they can’t take away, a company credit card we can use for everything including meals, so we can pocket the per-diem (yes I know we already had the meal plan, but now its locked in) and it all caulks up to a pretty good TA.

Wake up and look around, we are in the middle of the greatest economic crisis in 80 years, and the union got us an average of 36% over and above what we have now cumulatively for the life of this contract. Do we disserve more, hell yes, but we live to fight another day and if the company fails to exercise it’s options to extend this contract we will be back at the bargaining table in 2.5 years. If they do exercise those options, great, a 6.5% raise for each extra year.

Oh and since the 16/2 schedule is the highest paid so it will go senior, therefore no involuntary assignments, just ask any NJ pilot.

 

[FLSTCI]

Easy for you to say, “Keep up the good fight” when you slunk away “2 ½ years ago” to avoid that fight.

Since you quoted the time frame, ITFL, I'm assuming that you're referring to me. Please allow me to respond.

I didn't "slink away" from anything. I supported the IBT coming on the property from the beginning. I "flew the pledge" consistently and paid my dues promptly and as a result departed in good standing. (Which, by the way, worked to my benefit as the pilots at the company where I now work have been represented by the Teamsters for years, so I was able to avoid the initiation fee.) Most importantly, I departed because I'd had my fill of the fractional life. I wanted to fly the type of aircraft and have the type of schedule that working at my present company would allow. It was a significant departure from what I used to do at Flight Options. I'm doing the job I always wanted to do and enjoying my life immensely. I made my choice to leave for reasons which had nothing to do with the "fight" you allude to. Had I chosen to stay at Options, I would have been as diligent as any of you in pursuing a CBA.

For what it's worth, all I meant in my post is that the pilots at Flight Options as a whole are the best arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not. It's up to them to decide if the TA is good enough for them. If it is not, then they should strive for one which is. I'm no longer there and, apart from hoping for the best for those of my colleagues and friends who remain, do not "have a dog in this fight." I acknowledge that freely. But that changes nothing.

Finally, at the risk of sounding condescending (which I really don't intend -- I don't like it any more than anyone else does) you will discover that you really do attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. I have never been rude to anyone on this site (I hope?) and I would ask the same consideration of others. Think carefully about what you want to say before you commit it to a forum like this.

 

[nerdpilot]

My take on is that the pilots never got all they wanted and the company never got all it wanted.

The problem for the company now is that this TA will not increase morale or the productivity and support they think it will from the pilot group.

If it passes they will have a group of underpaid unhappy pilots with continued low morale with a contract that protects them.
I for one am not happy with the pay either but, I can assure you that I will take full advantage of everything the contract has to offer to my maximum benefit so as to get everything I can out of it.

It seems to me that the company thinks that things will go back to the way they were in 1998-2000.
They are sadly mistaken, those days are long gone.

You are 100 percent correct!!!!!!

 

[Geronimo4497]

What does the 16-2 schedule mean? 16 days on 2 weeks off?

Ouch. My head hurts just thinking about that.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Geronimo.......I'm with ya on that one. 16 straight days away from home just so they can fly rich people around? What the hell are they thinking? No job or employer is worth that.

 

[Myster79]

What does the 16-2 schedule mean? 16 days on 2 weeks off?

Ouch. My head hurts just thinking about that.

No that just means your schedule is flexible. The max you can work is 8 on then mandatory 6 off. The company can move your days around every month as required. However, you know your schedule by the 15th of the month for the next month and that block won't change. Kinda like bidding a build up line in 121.

 

[flydog1]

Geronimo.......I'm with ya on that one. 16 straight days away from home just so they can fly rich people around? What the hell are they thinking? No job or employer is worth that.

why do you guys that don't even work here just try to make up stuff you know nothing about?? It is a max of 18 day work period a month not all in a row....

 

[cougar12]

Math 101

I think you guys are all smoking crack. The union just sent out an announcement that indicates the following total percent cumulative raises for Captains, over the full five year term of the contract. BJ, 35.23%, Hawker, 46.57%, Citation X, 55.88% and Legacy, 46.80%. Now I know, it’s only 10% up front and I’m not happy about that, but I’m a Hawker guy and a 46% raise over 5 years sounds pretty good to me. We also get retro pay, looks like about a $1200 lump sum check for me. On January 1st 2011 my total cumulative raise will be over 20%.

ITFL, lets see we lost our 401k match (6%) 2 years ago. So 6x2=12%, 12%-10%= 2% loss of pay in year 1. This is scheduled to continue for the life of the contract so 5x6%=30%. Furtrhermore, lets use 4% annual inflation or 4% increased cost of living 5x4%=20%
So 12%+30%+20%=62% loss. all I see is a net loss in 5years for everyone.

 

[cougar12]

I am really excited about the "Future improvements to the 401K plan" They are as exciting as our new pay schedules for the Airbus 380!

 

[jetwash]

16+2 is more likely going to go senior due to higher pay. They must notify you at least 1/2 month ahead of time your schedule.

16+2 will be forced onto the junior pilots.

Look at the 10 year Captain on 27.1 (A) and 27.1(C) charts on page 171 and 172 and tell me again that it will go senior. For that little amount of extra money per year and a lot more work.

Like I said before, the pilot morale and effort will remain the same as the last few years. The TA won't change any attitudes.

 

[dime line]

16+2 will be forced onto the junior pilots.

Look at the 10 year Captain on 27.1 (A) and 27.1(C) charts on page 171 and 172 and tell me again that it will go senior. For that little amount of extra money per year and a lot more work.

Like I said before, the pilot morale and effort will remain the same as the last few years. The TA won't change any attitudes

.

That is very true! Sad but true.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Wow, I'm starting to feel fortunate to be at Flexjet. Sounds like you guys got hosed on this one. You deserve at least what we get paid.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Flydog....I'll be the first to say I didn't have a clue what 16-2 meant. Thanks for clearing it up. It looked REALLY scary at first sight. Travel Management....they want their guys to work 2 weeks straight.