According to last weeks WSJ they plan on increasing international capacity this year. Imagine that....an airline actually flying jets instead of outsourcing.
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According to last weeks WSJ they plan on increasing international capacity this year. Imagine that....an airline actually flying jets instead of outsourcing.
General Lee
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I don't think that is the case......
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
Reducing the presence of US airlines at Tokyo's Narita Airport is a key issue behind the Japanese government’s reported preference for a Japan Airlines-Delta tie-up.
An air treaty between Japan and the US that was signed more than 50 years ago could be behind the Japanese government's reported preference for Japan Airlines (JAL) to switch alliances and join Delta Air Lines in Skyteam.
"The [Japanese] government is deeply concerned with the open sky policy between Japan and the US," said Hajime Tozaki, professor of transport at Tokyo-based Waseda University's organisation of Asian studies. "The [former] air transport treaty between the US and Japan has been unfair. The main issue for the government is to reduce the share of slots at Narita Airport held by US airlines."
Ever since the 1952 Civil Air Transport Agreement between Japan and the US, two American carriers have been able to fly via Japan into Asia. This provision, created when aircraft could fly far shorter ranges than they can today, gave US airlines a highly sought after right that few countries grant carriers from other nations. Today, despite the vast improvements in aircraft technology, Delta and United Airlines still hold these rights and, combined with other US carriers, control a third of the available take-off and landing slots at Japan's busiest international gateway, Narita Airport near Tokyo.
The open skies agreement between Japan and the US that was announced this past December will not change the existing "beyond rights" or slot allotments. What it will allow is for unlimited air services between Japan and the US by any airline of either country as long as they can acquire the necessary slots.
JAL is currently part of the Oneworld alliance with American Airlines. Since last fall, American and Delta have offered the Japanese carrier competing bids for its allegiance, including equity investments and cash for staying or joining their respective alliance. A decision is expected this month and could come as soon as today.
Tozaki said that if the government were to push JAL to align with Delta, it would likely ask that the US carrier relinquish some of its Narita slots and rights to fly beyond Japan into Asia. However, Delta would be in a good position to receive new international slots at Tokyo's Haneda International Airport, which is closer to downtown than Narita, as a symbol of the airport's new "international" status, he continued.
Aligning with Delta could be both good and bad for JAL and Japan. "If Delta wins in this race, the balance between the three alliances will be lost," said Tozaki. "The choice [of airlines] for the Japanese people will be reduced." He said JAL, which reportedly will drop at least 34 routes as part of its bankruptcy restructuring, could be asked to cut trans-Pacific services to the US -- one of Japan's largest international markets -- and to beef up services to Asia.
Makoto Murayama, a senior analyst at Nomura in Tokyo, agrees with Tozaki that slots and rights to fly beyond Japan could be one reason for the government's preference for Delta and Skyteam, but said it is unlikely to be the only reason. "A Delta-JAL alliance would have the largest share of trans-Pacific traffic," he said. "By joining Delta, JAL would receive more traffic and [hopefully] recover faster."
American currently has slots for 35 flights per week (or five daily flights) at Narita Airport, but no rights to fly beyond the airport into Japan. If JAL were to stay in the Oneworld alliance with American, the Japanese government would have no leverage to reduce the number of slots US carriers have at its main airport.
What has not come up in the discussions about the Japanese government's decision-making process is whether or not JAL and its future alliance partner would be able to receive antitrust immunity for flights between the US and Japan. This issue has been hotly debated in the US press and argued about by both American and Delta, but in Japan it appears to have taken a back seat to reviving the country's flag carrier and to reducing the hub operations of US carriers at Narita Airport.
The government of Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama is gambling considerable political capital on JAL. By allowing the airline to enter into bankruptcy last month, it is letting one of Japan Inc's largest and best known brands risk insolvency. Minister of transport Seiji Maehara has been quoted as saying that the government is not trying to find a solution for the airline, but with so much on the line for the four-month old administration, JAL's return to profitability is almost a must for the government.
"The Japanese government injected taxpayer money [into JAL]," said Murayama. "They can't afford for them to fail again."
The final decision of whether JAL stays in Oneworld with American or switches to Skyteam with Delta will ultimately be made by the airline's management and the Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corporation (ETIC), which is acting as trustee of the airline while it operates under bankruptcy protection. The opinion of the airline's new chief executive, Kazuo Inamori, who officially starts today, is unknown, but he is reported to agree with the bureaucrats at Japan's ministry of land, infrastructure, transport and tourism in preferring Delta's offer.
JAL's current management reportedly prefers to stay part of Oneworld. This preference could be due to any number of reasons, including a Japanese disinclination for sudden change and the cost that switching alliances would place on the bankrupt airline. A switch to Skyteam would mean changing everything from its reservation system to rebranding its aircraft.
"Senior management's predilection to remain with Oneworld has been over-ridden by the government and the investors providing financing," said Peter Harbison, executive chairman of the Centre for Asia-Pacific Aviation. "The creditors and owners of JAL should not be making calls on the airline's operational future."
However, asked what airline he thought JAL should form an alliance with, Harbison said he preferred Delta.
Of course, it's not over until the fat lady sings, or in JAL's case, until Inamori and the ETIC decides. Sources say American and Delta met with Inamori this past Thursday in Tokyo to discuss their respective alliance offers. Now, after a fierce, several month-long bidding war in the midst of an industry-wide slump, all the parties can do is sit back and wait for the Tokyo bureaucrats to make their decision.
© Haymarket Media Limited. All rights reserved.
I think I was right, it really is all about the slots. We want to keep as many as we can, and now it seems JAL may want some or to give some of ours away. Good old LM better not give any away. I thought JAL was the one in trouble??? We have a guaranteed number of slots we have to keep in our Joint Contract we just signed, and only LM could try to give those away. Don't do it LM, just don't do it.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
Reducing the presence of US airlines at Tokyo's Narita Airport is a key issue behind the Japanese government’s reported preference for a Japan Airlines-Delta tie-up.
An air treaty between Japan and the US that was signed more than 50 years ago could be behind the Japanese government's reported preference for Japan Airlines (JAL) to switch alliances and join Delta Air Lines in Skyteam.
"The [Japanese] government is deeply concerned with the open sky policy between Japan and the US," said Hajime Tozaki, professor of transport at Tokyo-based Waseda University's organisation of Asian studies. "The [former] air transport treaty between the US and Japan has been unfair. The main issue for the government is to reduce the share of slots at Narita Airport held by US airlines."
Ever since the 1952 Civil Air Transport Agreement between Japan and the US, two American carriers have been able to fly via Japan into Asia. This provision, created when aircraft could fly far shorter ranges than they can today, gave US airlines a highly sought after right that few countries grant carriers from other nations. Today, despite the vast improvements in aircraft technology, Delta and United Airlines still hold these rights and, combined with other US carriers, control a third of the available take-off and landing slots at Japan's busiest international gateway, Narita Airport near Tokyo.
The open skies agreement between Japan and the US that was announced this past December will not change the existing "beyond rights" or slot allotments. What it will allow is for unlimited air services between Japan and the US by any airline of either country as long as they can acquire the necessary slots.
JAL is currently part of the Oneworld alliance with American Airlines. Since last fall, American and Delta have offered the Japanese carrier competing bids for its allegiance, including equity investments and cash for staying or joining their respective alliance. A decision is expected this month and could come as soon as today.
Tozaki said that if the government were to push JAL to align with Delta, it would likely ask that the US carrier relinquish some of its Narita slots and rights to fly beyond Japan into Asia. However, Delta would be in a good position to receive new international slots at Tokyo's Haneda International Airport, which is closer to downtown than Narita, as a symbol of the airport's new "international" status, he continued.
Aligning with Delta could be both good and bad for JAL and Japan. "If Delta wins in this race, the balance between the three alliances will be lost," said Tozaki. "The choice [of airlines] for the Japanese people will be reduced." He said JAL, which reportedly will drop at least 34 routes as part of its bankruptcy restructuring, could be asked to cut trans-Pacific services to the US -- one of Japan's largest international markets -- and to beef up services to Asia.
Makoto Murayama, a senior analyst at Nomura in Tokyo, agrees with Tozaki that slots and rights to fly beyond Japan could be one reason for the government's preference for Delta and Skyteam, but said it is unlikely to be the only reason. "A Delta-JAL alliance would have the largest share of trans-Pacific traffic," he said. "By joining Delta, JAL would receive more traffic and [hopefully] recover faster."
American currently has slots for 35 flights per week (or five daily flights) at Narita Airport, but no rights to fly beyond the airport into Japan. If JAL were to stay in the Oneworld alliance with American, the Japanese government would have no leverage to reduce the number of slots US carriers have at its main airport.
What has not come up in the discussions about the Japanese government's decision-making process is whether or not JAL and its future alliance partner would be able to receive antitrust immunity for flights between the US and Japan. This issue has been hotly debated in the US press and argued about by both American and Delta, but in Japan it appears to have taken a back seat to reviving the country's flag carrier and to reducing the hub operations of US carriers at Narita Airport.
The government of Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama is gambling considerable political capital on JAL. By allowing the airline to enter into bankruptcy last month, it is letting one of Japan Inc's largest and best known brands risk insolvency. Minister of transport Seiji Maehara has been quoted as saying that the government is not trying to find a solution for the airline, but with so much on the line for the four-month old administration, JAL's return to profitability is almost a must for the government.
"The Japanese government injected taxpayer money [into JAL]," said Murayama. "They can't afford for them to fail again."
The final decision of whether JAL stays in Oneworld with American or switches to Skyteam with Delta will ultimately be made by the airline's management and the Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corporation (ETIC), which is acting as trustee of the airline while it operates under bankruptcy protection. The opinion of the airline's new chief executive, Kazuo Inamori, who officially starts today, is unknown, but he is reported to agree with the bureaucrats at Japan's ministry of land, infrastructure, transport and tourism in preferring Delta's offer.
JAL's current management reportedly prefers to stay part of Oneworld. This preference could be due to any number of reasons, including a Japanese disinclination for sudden change and the cost that switching alliances would place on the bankrupt airline. A switch to Skyteam would mean changing everything from its reservation system to rebranding its aircraft.
"Senior management's predilection to remain with Oneworld has been over-ridden by the government and the investors providing financing," said Peter Harbison, executive chairman of the Centre for Asia-Pacific Aviation. "The creditors and owners of JAL should not be making calls on the airline's operational future."
However, asked what airline he thought JAL should form an alliance with, Harbison said he preferred Delta.
Of course, it's not over until the fat lady sings, or in JAL's case, until Inamori and the ETIC decides. Sources say American and Delta met with Inamori this past Thursday in Tokyo to discuss their respective alliance offers. Now, after a fierce, several month-long bidding war in the midst of an industry-wide slump, all the parties can do is sit back and wait for the Tokyo bureaucrats to make their decision.
© Haymarket Media Limited. All rights reserved.
I think I was right, it really is all about the slots. We want to keep as many as we can, and now it seems JAL may want some or to give some of ours away. Good old LM better not give any away. I thought JAL was the one in trouble??? We have a guaranteed number of slots we have to keep in our Joint Contract we just signed, and only LM could try to give those away. Don't do it LM, just don't do it.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
ACL65PILOT
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First, the Open Skies accord WILL effect these rights. I am sure that politically they do not want to admit it. Joint ventures make a lot of these rights null anyway.
Second, as you have indicated slots are very important. Actually NWA's initial slots were at Haneda and were moved to NRT at the request of the Japanese government. It does not appear that they want to entertain the idea of us moving some or all of those slots back. They want Haneda for home turf advantage.
Third, the only real way to combat this "protectionist" element of the open skies that our government has agreed to is to partner with JAL or ANA. Anyone else will just not have the access. Hence where we are with JAL today.
As you know Haneda is close, and a lot more accessible than NRT. Yes, there is a high speed train, but ppl are about convenience. It will put a major damper on our NRT operation if we cannot have some sort of access to Haneda beyond the four slots a day that the OPEN Skies Accord is giving US carriers.
Andyd:
would it be a good deal to trade a few NRT slots for Haneda slots...even swap...AND pick up the int'l routes they are dropping along with some heavy metal on the cheap?
Read above. It would be great if we could just swap back. If the Japanese government allowed that, we would not need JAL. They are being protectionists. Open Skies should allow us unlimited access to Haneda, but the current form that the US government has agreed to does not.
As for what routes we get and what planes. There is rumor, and good rumor. Simply, it is just rumor until everyone signs on the dotted line. From the initial leanings, it appears that we may give up a few of the Beach destinations for some ULH flying. That would be an increase of staffing.
I assume we will see an official announcement after the MEC meeting where the whole Council give its direction to the MEC Leadership who will in turn direct the negotiating committee to arrive at at TA for this JV. If it falls apart, it falls apart. There are other options.
Dumb Pilot
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Rez O. Lewshun
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How many slots do we have in our "joint contract". I suppose you mean JCBA?
How much NRT flying is contractualy protected?
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T100202006378.htm
"
With regard to alliance talks with Delta Air Lines, Onishi said, "Instead of being bound up by past discussions, we're currently debating the issue from scratch under the new management," indicating that the basic agreement reached with Delta may be scrapped.
Meanwhile, Inamori said, "As the [Delta Air Lines] issue has been discussed within the company for some time, we'd like to reach a conclusion as soon as possible," suggesting he will take seriously the discussions already held by JAL."
Acey
"
With regard to alliance talks with Delta Air Lines, Onishi said, "Instead of being bound up by past discussions, we're currently debating the issue from scratch under the new management," indicating that the basic agreement reached with Delta may be scrapped.
Meanwhile, Inamori said, "As the [Delta Air Lines] issue has been discussed within the company for some time, we'd like to reach a conclusion as soon as possible," suggesting he will take seriously the discussions already held by JAL."
Acey
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Looks like the world turns again - now in favor or AA over DL for JAL...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...5051292573940862.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines
This may be only a leak from the AA side to create more drama in the process. Who knows? I kinda thought this was a done deal with DL - maybe it is and maybe it isn't!!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...5051292573940862.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines
This may be only a leak from the AA side to create more drama in the process. Who knows? I kinda thought this was a done deal with DL - maybe it is and maybe it isn't!!
Itai!
ACL65PILOT
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ACL65PILOT
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passenger seats on any Fifth Freedom flight segment between Japan and Asian cities
beyond Japan, unless 316 weekly NRT slots are scheduled to be utilized in Company
flying.
Exception: Through October 30, 2011, the Company will be deemed in compliance
with this provision if it schedules not less than 85% of such 316 weekly NRT slots.
beyond Japan, unless 316 weekly NRT slots are scheduled to be utilized in Company
flying.
Exception: Through October 30, 2011, the Company will be deemed in compliance
with this provision if it schedules not less than 85% of such 316 weekly NRT slots.
johnsonrod
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Well.. I think this is an important lesson in listening to rumors, no matter who you heard it from.
AnimalTale
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ACL65PILOT
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I only mentioned that JAL/DAL being a done deal was the word at NATCO not an actual fact. This message board is almost entirely filled with speculation, rumors and what-ifs, hence it's raison-d'etre.
Going2Baja
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Voice Of Reason
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Japan Air sticks with Qantas in oneworld
"Japan Air sticks with Qantas in oneworld
MATT O'SULLIVAN
February 10, 2010 - 11:26AM
Qantas and its airline partners in the oneworld alliance have won the battle to keep Asia’s biggest carrier, Japan Airlines, in their camp.
JAL’s decision to stay with oneworld is a dramatic turnaround from several weeks ago when it looked to be on the verge of defecting to the Delta Air Lines-led SkyTeam alliance.
The Japanese flagship carrier and American Airlines also announced plans for a strategic alliance on the lucrative Japan-US route. It will require regulatory approval in both Japan and the US.
The deal could also open the way for deeper working relationships with other airlines in the oneworld alliance, including Qantas and British Airways. Qantas has already promised to share its expertise in running a no-frills airline with JAL.
Qantas’s chief executive, Alan Joyce, said in a statement today that the airline was looking forward to working with the new leadership team at JAL. ‘‘We believe oneworld is clearly the right strategic alliance option for JAL, providing both commercial stability and growth opportunities at a vital time for the airline,’’ he said.
Shares in Qantas rose 4 cents to $2.84 in early morning trading.
After entering US-style bankruptcy protection last month, JAL unveiled a restructure plan which includes axing 14 international and 17 domestic routes by the end of March 2013, slashing about 15,700 jobs and phasing out 53 aircraft.
The American Airlines-led oneworld and SkyTeam have been engaged in bidding war to win over JAL for months. American Airlines and private-equity firm TPG offered to invest as much as $US1.4 billion ($1.6 billion) in the Japanese airline.
The decision to stay in oneworld is a relief to Qantas because the alliance helps feed passengers from Japan onto its network. Qantas also has a codeshare with JAL on the Japan-Australia route.
Qantas gains an estimated $500 million a year in revenue from the route. About 70 per cent of the traffic on the route comes from Japan.
It is also a boost to the long-term viability of the 11-member oneworld alliance, which is dwarfed by the 25-member Star Alliance, whose members include the Japanese airline All Nippon Airways.
But it is a slight negative for Virgin Blue which could have benefited from SkyTeam gaining a presence in Japan. The second-largest Australian airline has a close working relationship with Delta, which could have helped it to further any ambitions it has in the Japanese market.
Virgin Blue has previously mooted the possibility of its long-haul offshoot, V Australia, flying to Haneda Airport in Tokyo.
[email protected]
SMH"
"Japan Air sticks with Qantas in oneworld
MATT O'SULLIVAN
February 10, 2010 - 11:26AM
Qantas and its airline partners in the oneworld alliance have won the battle to keep Asia’s biggest carrier, Japan Airlines, in their camp.
JAL’s decision to stay with oneworld is a dramatic turnaround from several weeks ago when it looked to be on the verge of defecting to the Delta Air Lines-led SkyTeam alliance.
The Japanese flagship carrier and American Airlines also announced plans for a strategic alliance on the lucrative Japan-US route. It will require regulatory approval in both Japan and the US.
The deal could also open the way for deeper working relationships with other airlines in the oneworld alliance, including Qantas and British Airways. Qantas has already promised to share its expertise in running a no-frills airline with JAL.
Qantas’s chief executive, Alan Joyce, said in a statement today that the airline was looking forward to working with the new leadership team at JAL. ‘‘We believe oneworld is clearly the right strategic alliance option for JAL, providing both commercial stability and growth opportunities at a vital time for the airline,’’ he said.
Shares in Qantas rose 4 cents to $2.84 in early morning trading.
After entering US-style bankruptcy protection last month, JAL unveiled a restructure plan which includes axing 14 international and 17 domestic routes by the end of March 2013, slashing about 15,700 jobs and phasing out 53 aircraft.
The American Airlines-led oneworld and SkyTeam have been engaged in bidding war to win over JAL for months. American Airlines and private-equity firm TPG offered to invest as much as $US1.4 billion ($1.6 billion) in the Japanese airline.
The decision to stay in oneworld is a relief to Qantas because the alliance helps feed passengers from Japan onto its network. Qantas also has a codeshare with JAL on the Japan-Australia route.
Qantas gains an estimated $500 million a year in revenue from the route. About 70 per cent of the traffic on the route comes from Japan.
It is also a boost to the long-term viability of the 11-member oneworld alliance, which is dwarfed by the 25-member Star Alliance, whose members include the Japanese airline All Nippon Airways.
But it is a slight negative for Virgin Blue which could have benefited from SkyTeam gaining a presence in Japan. The second-largest Australian airline has a close working relationship with Delta, which could have helped it to further any ambitions it has in the Japanese market.
Virgin Blue has previously mooted the possibility of its long-haul offshoot, V Australia, flying to Haneda Airport in Tokyo.
[email protected]
SMH"
Re rumors . Had both the big boys on flts ATL/NRT and never did they ever say done deal. Mostly we would like this and are making our best effort. At a flt ops road show a few weeks ago week i found it interesting that Capt Steve said he was planning as was the rest of the company as if the JAL was not going to happen.They had never been told to make plans other wise...
Brings up a good point. Management think pilots are stupid. Why? Because we listen to everything they say like it is gold!! How many pilots are there at Delta, and how many of those think they know what is going to happen? Then number is close to equal. This is a rumor board, but people get too caught up in what they think the future will hold. If management tells you that it is a good thing, don't for a second think they are talking about a good thing for pilots - and this is why the failure of DL/JAL is a good thing for Delta pilots (IMHO).
Rez O. Lewshun
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Pilots think because they are educated and in control of million dollar assets that they are asset managers in the company.
Air Line Pilots do Not Run or Operate Airlines.
A pilots job is to safely operate a jet from point A to B. Trying to stay atop of what management is doing without all the information (not being in the board room or the backroom) is like a passenger in the back row trying to guess how and what the pilots should do next.
A great a example is the misguided efforts of the UAL pilots and the ESOP.
ACL65PILOT
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Contrary to popular beleive they do not need to be mutually exclusive. There are times when our interests can align.
michael707767
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I never really bought into the idea that a JAL would produce a large difference in the amount of pilots required. In fact I had my suspicions that the JAL deal may work against us.
You're most likely correct in that a significant portion of the Asia interport flying could have gone to JAL.
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