CAL Pilot Openers...

[SFR]

I like the idea of a pay raise, but if it is really going to cost $500 million where will the money come from?

CAL did not make $500 million profit for 2009. Would that put us more negative?

 

[Ex737Driver]

Look under the rock you need to burry your head under.

 

[anewunion]

I like the idea of a pay raise, but if it is really going to cost $500 million where will the money come from?

CAL did not make $500 million profit for 2009. Would that put us more negative?

Please stay far away from the negotiations...

P.S. CAL can find 500 Million a year by changing the lav water with a cheaper vendor..

 

[Glacialfury1906]

Don't care where it comes from.... Doesn't matter. LK's got that under his pillow...

 

[rumorhasit]

Don't care where it comes from.... Doesn't matter. LK's got that under his pillow...

Nice avatar... It make me feel a lil funny like when I used to climb the rope in gym class!!!!!

 

[jumppilot]

I like the idea of a pay raise, but if it is really going to cost $500 million where will the money come from?

CAL did not make $500 million profit for 2009. Would that put us more negative?

As a FO I'm sure you do a lot of walk arounds. Ever seen ground equipment that looks like it's 10 years old? Ever seen a dirty airplane? Ever seen an airplane that needs a paint job? Compare this to Airways 737s that look like they just went through re-entry.

The money is there, it's just being put into improvements for the operation. Once our contracts (FAs, mx and pilots) are signed, I bet we start making money again.

 

[SFR]

As a FO I'm sure you do a lot of walk arounds. Ever seen ground equipment that looks like it's 10 years old? Ever seen a dirty airplane? Ever seen an airplane that needs a paint job? Compare this to Airways 737s that look like they just went through re-entry.

The money is there, it's just being put into improvements for the operation. Once our contracts (FAs, mx and pilots) are signed, I bet we start making money again.

Yeah, but our equipment needs those repairs. Where is the money? Nobody answers my question.

 

[SFR]

As a FO I'm sure you do a lot of walk arounds. Ever seen ground equipment that looks like it's 10 years old? Ever seen a dirty airplane? Ever seen an airplane that needs a paint job? Compare this to Airways 737s that look like they just went through re-entry.

The money is there, it's just being put into improvements for the operation. Once our contracts (FAs, mx and pilots) are signed, I bet we start making money again.

I bet that is what UAL pilots thought when they signed their contract in 2000. I would also bet that is what DAL pilots thought when they signed in May 2001.

Look at UAL now.... DAL took a while to recover, and maybe still hasn't 100% yet.


Eastern.....they are still thinking that.



I am not against a pay raise, I just want to know where the union think the money is hiding. I would really like to know that because I would like to report CAL to the SEC if that is the case.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Yeah, but our equipment needs those repairs. Where is the money? Nobody answers my question.

If you had any education whatsoever, you would understand the concept of 'creative accounting'. For example, if an aircraft is due for a C-check in January, why not pull it in on Dec 30 and use the millions in cost to offset profits for the previous year. There are hundreds of write-offs, special charges, deferred revenue and other accounting loopholes that can be used, especially during employee contract negotiations. Where did CAL find the $$$ to buy the LHR slots? How are the taking new deliveries of aircraft? How are they making a 1 billion dollars of improvements to IAH terminals? Come on and stop with the flamebait, you can't actually be that stupid, or maybe just a company sympathizer...

Yogi

 

[jumppilot]

If you had any education whatsoever, you would understand the concept of 'creative accounting'. For example, if an aircraft is due for a C-check in January, why not pull it in on Dec 30 and use the millions in cost to offset profits for the previous year. There are hundreds of write-offs, special charges, deferred revenue and other accounting loopholes that can be used, especially during employee contract negotiations. Where did CAL find the $$$ to buy the LHR slots? How are the taking new deliveries of aircraft? How are they making a 1 billion dollars of improvements to IAH terminals? Come on and stop with the flamebait, you can't actually be that stupid, or maybe just a company sympathizer...

Yogi

And our total cash-on-hand is increasing as well.

 

[rtseatrich]

It will come from the $12.4 Billion dollar per year revenue stream.

They took at least $213 million per year in concessions from the Pilot group begining 2005.

Asking for only a $500 million per year increase in total pilot payroll is more than reasonable IMHO.

 

[SFR]

If you had any education whatsoever, you would understand the concept of 'creative accounting'. For example, if an aircraft is due for a C-check in January, why not pull it in on Dec 30 and use the millions in cost to offset profits for the previous year. There are hundreds of write-offs, special charges, deferred revenue and other accounting loopholes that can be used, especially during employee contract negotiations. Where did CAL find the $$$ to buy the LHR slots? How are the taking new deliveries of aircraft? How are they making a 1 billion dollars of improvements to IAH terminals? Come on and stop with the flamebait, you can't actually be that stupid, or maybe just a company sympathizer...

Yogi

So instead of getting the London slots or doing the C check they should give the pilots a raise? Remind me to never go into business with you, you would run it into the ground.

The airplane needs a C check, it does not matter which year you debit the expense. It would just be less expense for the next year.

The London slots generate money, that simple. We need as many assets that put money into the bottom line right now.

We also need terminal improvements, it is called reinvesting the money.

If you can't see how that works you just need to stick to flying the line and pushing those buttons on the panel and collect your check when it comes in. I hope for your sake that you never lose your flying job because it appears that you don't know how to make money elsewhere (or in the rest of the real world).

BTW, I will take the payraise if we get it.

 

[100/hour/5y]

BTW, I will take the payraise if we get it.

You would suck your wife cok if she had one!

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

So instead of getting the London slots or doing the C check they should give the pilots a raise? Remind me to never go into business with you, you would run it into the ground.

The airplane needs a C check, it does not matter which year you debit the expense. It would just be less expense for the next year.

The London slots generate money, that simple. We need as many assets that put money into the bottom line right now.

We also need terminal improvements, it is called reinvesting the money.

If you can't see how that works you just need to stick to flying the line and pushing those buttons on the panel and collect your check when it comes in. I hope for your sake that you never lose your flying job because it appears that you don't know how to make money elsewhere (or in the rest of the real world).

BTW, I will take the payraise if we get it.

So you are that stupid, wow, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt...

Those expenses will allow for more profits in the future, AFTER the labor contracts are settled. It's all about juggling money. You can make the books look as dismal as you want to, but someday you will pay the piper. So tell me why the cash on hand is increasing at CAL, as they show dismal financial pictures???

You will never get it, give it up!

Yogi

 

[Paul R. Smith]

You guys better be nice to Sean. He is gonna be your chief pilot in nothing flat.

 

[bizicmo]

Even without creative accounting, are you suggesting that since CAL couldn't even make a $500 million profit in 2009 that there shouldn't be a raise going forward. $500 million profit in 2009, a year in which we were in one of the largest economic downturns in the last how many years? Well let's just go with an assumption that the next few years won't be as bad as 2009.

 

[ualdriver]

That 500M number is either completely bogus or the cost of a contract over some amount of years. They would have to be asking for astronomical raises in order to increase their pilot costs by an additional 500M, year over year.

 

[SFR]

I agree

 

[StopNTSing]

I bet that is what UAL pilots thought when they signed their contract in 2000. I would also bet that is what DAL pilots thought when they signed in May 2001.

Look at UAL now.... DAL took a while to recover, and maybe still hasn't 100% yet.


Eastern.....they are still thinking that.



I am not against a pay raise, I just want to know where the union think the money is hiding. I would really like to know that because I would like to report CAL to the SEC if that is the case.

*sigh* This exact mindset was still way too prevalent at my airline during our protracted negotiations.

For the benefit of the profession, will you please stick to flying airplanes and stop worrying about whether your company can afford raises? They have the real data....you and the union do not and never will. And if you're going to drag out those tired old UAL & DAL analogies, let's be honest and include AWA in the mix. During that time, they were the lowest paid pilots in the majors AND their airline was barely keeping it's financial head above water. Pilot costs are just not that relevant in the grand financial scheme of things.....heck, move the price of oil down $10/bbl for a year and you've just saved the entire annual cost of the pilot payroll at most airlines. Competent management and a sound business strategy (neither of which you have any influence on, BTW) make the real difference between red or black ink.

Every time you push back from the gate, you and the guy to your left are assuming responsibility for more than a billion dollars of corporate liability. You earn every nickel you are paid, deserve far more than you are currently making, and will never see a penny more unless you are willing to look management in the eye and ask for it.

I wish you all the best in your upcoming Sect 6! :beer:

 

[SFR]

*sigh* This exact mindset was still way too prevalent at my airline during our protracted negotiations.

For the benefit of the profession, will you please stick to flying airplanes and stop worrying about whether your company can afford raises? They have the real data....you and the union do not and never will. And if you're going to drag out those tired old UAL & DAL analogies, let's be honest and include AWA in the mix. During that time, they were the lowest paid pilots in the majors AND their airline was barely keeping it's financial head above water. Pilot costs are just not that relevant in the grand financial scheme of things.....heck, move the price of oil down $10/bbl for a year and you've just saved the entire annual cost of the pilot payroll at most airlines. Competent management and a sound business strategy (neither of which you have any influence on, BTW) make the real difference between red or black ink.

Every time you push back from the gate, you and the guy to your left are assuming responsibility for more than a billion dollars of corporate liability. You earn every nickel you are paid, deserve far more than you are currently making, and will never see a penny more unless you are willing to look management in the eye and ask for it.

I wish you all the best in your upcoming Sect 6! :beer:

Well said and I agree 100%. My point is that most of the complaining pilots at CAL only think about their side and don't care about what the company's health is.

I am not a management boy or a union boy, I am realistic. If the company goes out of business we will have no raise. The funniest part of it all is that the pilots that complain the most and want to bring the airline "to its knees" are ones that probably don't have any source of income lined up if that actually happens.

I find that very funny, but human nature is funny if you think about it.

Either way, I am currently very happy at CAL. Any gain would be great and would be frosting on the cake to me. The only way I see it getting better is if I never fly and get more money!

But honestly speaking, if anyone is moving to the Houston area and wants to buy a house, if you use me as your buyer's agent I will credit you 1% of the purchase price back to you at closing. You probably won't find that deal anywhere else.

Email me if interested (this is a good offer for all of Texas).

 

[whymeworry?]

WADR, you really need to wake up. The money has ALWAYS been there. Unfortunately it gets wasted in poor business decisions. Nearly a billion dollars wasted on grossly inept fuel hedging decisions. Over $350 million wasted in downsizing attempts (parking aircraft, furloughing pilots, closing markets, etc). More than $100 million paid in executive severance packages (execs who made the most pathetic decisions and were paid to leave). And let's not forget the $600 million for planned Terminal B improvements at IAH or the infamous $300 million wasted on LHR slots. Those flights are still going out bone-empty every time except for the holidays. Need I go on? There is plenty more to that list.

Now let's look at the cost of employee moral. Ever negotiated with someone where you thought you got the better part of the deal and the other party got the shaft? Eventually, if you have no choice but to remain in business with them, that other party will do everything they can to equalize the transaction. That is basic behavior economics. It is the reason why city government construction projects often run over budget. Contractor A underbids to get the job. Once he realizes he can't make any money he withdraws enthusiasm for the project. The gov't must fire him and bring in a new contractor which charges them cost-plus; either that or they capitulate, and cater to original contractor's demands in order to finish the job. As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. CAL mgmt has no choice but to do business with it's pilot group. It can either chose to continue to take advantage of the situation, as it has done with our concessionary contract, or it can negotiate in good faith, put the issue to bed and move forward. Failure to do the latter will result in increased employee demoralization, which will in fact deteriorate the bottom line in an expotentially worse manner the longer it choses to delay. Due to economies of scale, messing with a pilot group of 5,000 angry professionals can literally destroy the company over time. Show me one carrier out there who has succeeded over the long run by over-reaching cost-cutting. When employees are the major working parts of your business, it simply doesn't work. How much has CAL lost over the past 6 months by battling the mechanics? How much of a raise are they asking for? How much will it cost CAL to continue a protracted battle with said group?

Granting the pilot group a fair process towards a new CBA is not an exercise in benevolence. It is about making sound and prudent business decisions. Unfortunately as we all know too well, Harvard MBAs don't understand this concept, which is why labor will most likely have to force a strike to get it's point across. In the meantime, billions will be wasted. Get your financial affair in order because this is what it will take.

So the money is there (don't forget, CAL did not get to $3.5 billion in the bank mysteriously; $2.5 billion of that money has been put away during the post 9/11 years of losses). In fact, without being biased, I am of the firm belief that a swift conclusion in all of CAL's labor contracts will result very real savings to the bottom line. Remember, we're not asking for the moon here. Our openers were accomplished through the advise of NMB experts who told us to be realistic in our expectations in order to effectuate a TA as quickly as possible.

You need to educate yourself about the inner-workings of this business. Mgmt will always claim the money isn't there, even when we're profitable. But just as they said we would go out of business as oil went from $30-60-80-90-120-$150, so too will they claim that any increase in pilot costs will undermine the viability of the carrier as a whole. To that I say, how much will is cost them to have extremely unmotivated managers in charge of their operation (make no mistake about it, we are in charge of the frontline operations; our decisions collectively save or lose them hundreds of millions of dollars each year)? I don't disagree that capital expenditure and improvements are part of the business. But just the same so too are raises (though ours is less a raise and more of a loan repayment as we gave them a loan to grow the business).

Remember, as a pilot you are actually losing money each year with our present concessionary contract. As our benefits in health costs aggressively rise while coverage decreases (this costs you thousands in increased prescription costs/ health costs, etc). As our costs to do our job increase requirements for internet usage/ disability ins/ getting to/ from work, etc. And as inflation eats into your purchasing power. If we don't manage this problem now though a livable CBA, the airline will cease to exist (in the same manner as mgmt suggests due to increased pilot pay) as more and more pilots simply lose interest in being a productive and effective employee. As a businessman, I view labor as more of a tool than as a problem. How I effectively extract the most efficiency out of that tool is a very important dance of economics as well as persuasion. We certainly can't give away the company store to any one entity. But we can't demoralize our skilled labor either. Recall it probably costs $50-75,000 to train and recruit a pilot. Even if we were to fire everyone today (a frankly unrealistic option) the cost to bring in an entirely new labor talent would've probably out-weighed any real reward of such a gamble.

I think when you factor in all the variables, these openers are a windfall for CAL mgmt. And the only reason I can support them is that it is only for a 3-year deal. Certainly there is even more money in there for pilot compensation.

They will either continue to bury their head in the sand that it is not necessary to work with labor (just as they buried their head in the sand about hedging oil costs/ or about over-paying for LHR slots). Or they can roll up their sleeves and agree to a fair and equitable CBA and focus on their real job of taking on competition, and over-bearing governments. As pilots we all know the outcome. We will win. The question remains, how much money will mgmt spend (read: WASTE) to delay the inevitable?

 

[Green]

*sigh* This exact mindset was still way too prevalent at my airline during our protracted negotiations.

For the benefit of the profession, will you please stick to flying airplanes and stop worrying about whether your company can afford raises? They have the real data....you and the union do not and never will. And if you're going to drag out those tired old UAL & DAL analogies, let's be honest and include AWA in the mix. During that time, they were the lowest paid pilots in the majors AND their airline was barely keeping it's financial head above water. Pilot costs are just not that relevant in the grand financial scheme of things.....heck, move the price of oil down $10/bbl for a year and you've just saved the entire annual cost of the pilot payroll at most airlines. Competent management and a sound business strategy (neither of which you have any influence on, BTW) make the real difference between red or black ink.

Every time you push back from the gate, you and the guy to your left are assuming responsibility for more than a billion dollars of corporate liability. You earn every nickel you are paid, deserve far more than you are currently making, and will never see a penny more unless you are willing to look management in the eye and ask for it.

I wish you all the best in your upcoming Sect 6! :beer:

great post! Should be required reading for all new airline pilots. It is sad how well management has managed our expectations during the last 9 years.

 

[SFR]

Remember, as a pilot you are actually losing money each year with our present concessionary contract.

QUOTE]



Really? I just got a $10/hour payraise as of Dec. 6th. How did my pay go down?



Besides, the union to me is like a student council in a high school. It is there, has some meetings, votes on stuff, but has no power to change much.

 

[njcapt]

You guys better be nice to Sean. He is gonna be your chief pilot in nothing flat.

I can't tell if this is a really sophisticated troll, or what. It's obvious from his posts that Sean is a mercenary, but I find it hard to believe that he is this obtuse about negotiating.

Just in case you're not trolling, Sean, you should let the big boys involved in negotiations handle the strategy. The whole collective bargaining system in the US is so hopelessly biased toward management that it takes a totally unified labor force to wield any leverage. Unfortunately, with the left over scabs and management apologists at Continental, such as yourself, it's going to be a hard slog to achieve a decent agreement. You should let management bargain for themselves and the Association bargain for your (barely deserved) benefits. Don't get in the way of the real men working on your behalf.

 

[Flopgut]

*sigh* This exact mindset was still way too prevalent at my airline during our protracted negotiations.

For the benefit of the profession, will you please stick to flying airplanes and stop worrying about whether your company can afford raises? They have the real data....you and the union do not and never will. And if you're going to drag out those tired old UAL & DAL analogies, let's be honest and include AWA in the mix. During that time, they were the lowest paid pilots in the majors AND their airline was barely keeping it's financial head above water. Pilot costs are just not that relevant in the grand financial scheme of things.....heck, move the price of oil down $10/bbl for a year and you've just saved the entire annual cost of the pilot payroll at most airlines. Competent management and a sound business strategy (neither of which you have any influence on, BTW) make the real difference between red or black ink.

Every time you push back from the gate, you and the guy to your left are assuming responsibility for more than a billion dollars of corporate liability. You earn every nickel you are paid, deserve far more than you are currently making, and will never see a penny more unless you are willing to look management in the eye and ask for it.

I wish you all the best in your upcoming Sect 6! :beer:

Great post! Thanks!

 

[Glacialfury1906]

Lol... This is hilarious.. Two things. First, if he is just trolling and throwing out flamebait, we all lose for even responding to this cat... He's just trying to get a rise out of folks and it seems to work pretty good. It's the internet.... Second, if he really feels the way he feels and is truly that "lost", especially working at CAL, then there is nothing you can say to save him anyway... Seriously. There are a TON of these guys at every airline and you are better to divert your attention and focus elsewhere(sports, women, beer)... It's like the guys that really don't know an airline exists outside of their EWR-FCO/NRT routes.... Save your breath..

 

[SteelerMan]

Does anybody realize that the cost of living went up 6.8 percent in 2008, that's not my number, that's the governments. So that means that in 2008 almost all of us (I don't know everyone's contract) lost a bunch of ground. Maybe the most healthy airline, Southwest, just signed a contract that doesn't cover one years cost of living over the life of the contract, not even close. So go ahead and worry about your company's health why I figure out how to pay for everything else in life that is going up in price pretty rapidly. CEO's get paid alot of money to do their jobs, I suggest they figure out how to increase revenue. Cheers.

 

[SFR]

Does anybody realize that the cost of living went up 6.8 percent in 2008, that's not my number, that's the governments. So that means that in 2008 almost all of us (I don't know everyone's contract) lost a bunch of ground. Maybe the most healthy airline, Southwest, just signed a contract that doesn't cover one years cost of living over the life of the contract, not even close. So go ahead and worry about your company's health why I figure out how to pay for everything else in life that is going up in price pretty rapidly. CEO's get paid alot of money to do their jobs, I suggest they figure out how to increase revenue. Cheers.

My cost of living did not go up that much. I got a laptop for cheaper than I ever have, a house for 50% off and a 2009 car for $10k off sticker and $3k below KBB.

I guess the cost went up for people paying FMV (fair market value) for everything, but that is just a cost of being stupid.

 

[SFR]

Don't get in the way of the real men working on your behalf.

The real men that picketed downtown Houston, oh yeah, that helped a lot!

I guess it did help my QOL, I only flew 10 days since then.

 

[SteelerMan]

My cost of living did not go up that much. I got a laptop for cheaper than I ever have, a house for 50% off and a 2009 car for $10k off sticker and $3k below KBB.

I guess the cost went up for people paying FMV (fair market value) for everything, but that is just a cost of being stupid.

Ever gone to the grocery store, gas station, or gone to the doctor. Yeah you took advantage of someones foreclosure, a car company going out of business, and a crappy laptop. Good luck when you need to service that car, buy gas, hire a plumber, or get the geek squad. Then maybe you'll get a clue.