Re: American

[alsofurloughed]

Re: American

I am one of the initial 386 furloughed at AA that will forever be junior to the TWA group. I read my APA news and AA Pilot info everyday. I guess what I want to know is what is going on out there. I feel sheltered from the rumor mill and I need info. I know that it will only be rumors but I am wondering if the rumors are 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, etc. until the first pilot might be called back. Of course we never know but......

We have 595 at AA on furlough and 229 at TWA on furlough. I hope that when they call the 209 back from Nov. 8 to correct the seniority issue they will not replace it with 209 TWA folks. What have you all heard?

This has been an unfortunate time for our country and our industry. I wish everyone the best during this difficult time.

 

[Mandrake]

Take this with a grain of salt...

You may have read the info below from the aapilots website's Ask & Answer section. For me the answers below provide the best indicator I've seen to when those of us from the esteemed 386 might expect a recall. In short, 90% schedule in 6 months; 100% within 5 years; no newhire activity for at least 2 years.

My assessment in a nutshell is that I'm confident we'll have a job to come back to at AA eventually--at least the Wall Street analysts seem to think so. As for when? Well, it's time to find another job for awhile.

Good luck and remember to count your blessings that you do hold an AA seniority number which is more than the poor saps who had the 9/11 door slam on them before they even had a chance to interview.

Mandrake

=====
Here's the info. I changed the salient parts to boldface type.

Employment Application Status
 
Q: A friend of mine asked me what will be done with his application at AA. What can I tell him? Will he need to re-apply when we begin hiring again? Should he continue to update his application?

A: We have ceased all activity in regards to our pilot recruitment. He does not need to continue to update as we are not processing. It is still too soon to tell how recruitment will be done in the future. We do not plan on any activity for at least two years.

Anne Evans
Director Flight Administration

>>>>>>>
Corporate Plan for Recovery
 
Q: Can you summarize corporate's plan for recovery. We keep hearing about AA's attempts to trim costs; and based on Don Carty's recent speeches and interviews, we've done a remarkably good job of doing just that. I'd like to know what AA's "big picture" includes. Where does AA plan on being in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years from now; and how do we propose getting there?

A: We are still refining the big picture. Today we are about 80% of what we were before September 11th. In six months we hope to see that number increase - hopefully close to 90%. It is difficult to say if we will be at 100% in a year. That depends on many outside factors - including the war in Afghanistan. I would expect we will be well past the 100% stage in five years. Our plans are to be a larger, stronger airline by then. I wish I could be more specific, but there are too many variables.
Kude

 

[PHX767]

Anybody's guess is the best answer I have heard or believe. I am committed for the long haul. But we will be back.

Keep the faith.
PHX767

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Anybody's guess is the best answer I have heard or believe. I am committed for the long haul. But we will be back.

Still holding out?

 

[labbats]

Can a mod give me a reason this guy hasn't been kicked off this site yet?

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Can a mod give me a reason this guy hasn't been kicked off this site yet?

Whats your problem? I can't ask a poor guy who got furloughed 8 years ago if he's still waiting for a recall at American? Wow, grow up Charlie.

 

[aa73]

No significant movement until the first 65ers start retiring in 2012... at least that's my opinion.

We currently have over 300 pilots at AA over 60, the big unknown is, will they hold out till the end or will they retire at 62, or 63? The B-fund is slowly coming back up, maybe that will produce some early outs, but nothing significant.

Currently AA is slightly overmanned for winter/spring but just right/slightly undermanned for next summer. The new summer 2010 manning/capacity #s should be out any day now, that will determine what AA will do next year. A furlough is not out of the question, nor is a recall, although I've been told a furlough is unlikely. AA tends to not furlough if they won't be out for less than 2 years, which is about the time the 65ers start retiring.

Once that happens, the movement on this seniority list will really be astronomical. If I'm lucky I just might see a CA upgrade in the next 8-10 years! (for a 20 year upgrade..)

Stay tuned....
73

 

[OCP]

What are the #s starting in 2012?

 

[aa73]

60 in 2012
177 in 2013
250 in 2014
277 in 2015

and it keeps getting bigger, from the 400s all the way up to 700 in 2022. Keep in mind this does not take unplanned leaves into account.

 

[G4G5]

The ask and answer that you posted was signed by "kude". Kudwa hasn't been chief pilot for many years, that real old intel.

We have 3 more years before the age 60 guys turn 65, so no movement until then. Even at that point their are still 1888 pilots on furlough. If half decide to accept recall (lets call it 950), you are then dealing with a school house issue. 50 a month on average would be a lot for training and line checks along with upgrades considering the 3 MD80's are going for every 2 737's.

950/50/12month= A year and a half for everyone to get offered a recall. That's 4.5 years from now. Then they go in reverse order back up the list. Some guys will come back on the second call (me being one). Add another 6 months to train those guys and you are still looking at 5 years from now or IMHO 2015 before you see the first new hire at AA.

 

[thor2j]

Don't forget 500 or so eagle guys with numbers before new hires. Who knows how many will decide to go over.

 

[G4G5]

Don't forget 500 or so eagle guys with numbers before new hires. Who knows how many will decide to go over.

Good point, if they all decide to come over you just added another year before AA ever hires off the street.
Does anyone know when AA decides to recall, are the Eagle guys going to be the only ones called?

 

[St. Nic]

My assessment in a nutshell is that I'm confident we'll have a job to come back to at AA eventually--at least the Wall Street analysts seem to think so. As for when? Well, it's time to find another job for awhile.

Kude

If/ when AA buys USAir east your recall may be delayed. Just saying. Good luck!

 

[Cowboy75]

If/ when AA buys USAir east

In your dreams.

 

[Flyby1206]

Good point, if they all decide to come over you just added another year before AA ever hires off the street.
Does anyone know when AA decides to recall, are the Eagle guys going to be the only ones called?

**DISCLAIMER- The following info comes from an Eagle pilot (me) and what our union (AE ALPA) has told us, take it FWIW

A recent arbitration ruling stated that 244 of the approx 500 Eagle flowthroughs should have started class June 2007. The arbitrator has returned the 4 parties (AA, AE, APA, AE ALPA) to negotiate a remedy. If a remedy can't be reached within a 90 day period then it will go back to the arbitrator to decide how to fix things. I believe that 90 day period ends around beginning of Feb 2010. This is my understanding of the issue, but I am sure someone will have more details/comments.

APA and AE ALPA had a meeting recently to discuss any common ground for a remedy, but apparently there was zero common ground (according to AE ALPA). The next meeting will be Dec 18, where all 4 parties will be together talking. Next session scheduled for Jan 4th, and then if still no remedy the parties will meet with the arbitrator Feb 2, 3 and/or end of March. If it does go back to the arbitrator for a decision it could be prolonged much longer for him to come up with a solution.

 

[Fox-Tree]

Anybody's guess is the best answer I have heard or believe. I am committed for the long haul. But we will be back.

Keep the faith.
PHX767

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone would effectively put their professional life on hold for a decade waiting for the entry level job they had 10+ years earlier to re-open.

Sooner or later, don't you have to just move on?

 

[75M]

In your dreams.

Trust me, it's a mightmare, not a dream. Good luck guys.

 

[St. Nic]

**DISCLAIMER-
A recent arbitration ruling stated that 244 of the approx 500 Eagle flowthroughs should have started class June 2007. The arbitrator has returned the 4 parties (AA, AE, APA, AE ALPA) to negotiate a remedy. If a remedy can't be reached within a 90 day period then it will go back to the arbitrator to decide how to fix things. I believe that 90 day period ends around beginning of Feb 2010. This is my understanding of the issue, but I am sure someone will have more details/comments.

Best of luck with a senile arbiTRATOR. St Nic just keeps screwing things up...

 

[G4G5]

**DISCLAIMER- The following info comes from an Eagle pilot (me) and what our union (AE ALPA) has told us, take it FWIW

A recent arbitration ruling stated that 244 of the approx 500 Eagle flowthroughs should have started class June 2007.

That's the way I understood it. The 244 take us up to where we are today. The remaining 256 fall somewhere with in the 1888 still waiting to be recalled. I think that it's actually 535 pilots.

It's my understanding from the arbitrators ruling that the 244 Eagle pilots should have been offered recall already. It's my interpretation that when AA does start recalling the 244 Eagle pilots will be the first recalled and then installed onto the AA seniority list.

It will take 6-12 months to recall 244 pilots with current retirements near zero. That means no movement on the list (other then backwards) for the next year or so.

 

[TWA Dude]

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone would effectively put their professional life on hold for a decade waiting for the entry level job they had 10+ years earlier to re-open.

I don't think your condescending statement applies to many pilots at all. I've been at my current job for five and a half years and had every intention of deferring recall to AA. Well guess what, I'm slated to get furloughed early next year. Suddenly, a crappy $80,592/year job at AA doesn't sound so bad. Planning on accepting recall doesn't mean anything was put on hold. Heck, there's a furloughed ex-TWA guy who went through medical school and is now a real MD. He says he may accept recall due to how crappy (he feels) the medical profession is.

 

[Draginass]

I don't think your condescending statement applies to many pilots at all. I've been at my current job for five and a half years and had every intention of deferring recall to AA. Well guess what, I'm slated to get furloughed early next year. Suddenly, a crappy $80,592/year job at AA doesn't sound so bad. Planning on accepting recall doesn't mean anything was put on hold. Heck, there's a furloughed ex-TWA guy who went through medical school and is now a real MD. He says he may accept recall due to how crappy (he feels) the medical profession is.

Geez. If being an airline pilot beats being a physician, the medical profession must be in a bottomless pit of kimchi.

 

[Flyby1206]

It's my understanding from the arbitrators ruling that the 244 Eagle pilots should have been offered recall already. It's my interpretation that when AA does start recalling the 244 Eagle pilots will be the first recalled and then installed onto the AA seniority list.

That seems to be the general assumption of what the arbitrator will say if he is forced to make a decision (meaning the 4 parties cant come up with a remedy of their own). It would be sad to see Eagle flowthroughs "recalled" ahead of the TWA/AA furloighees who are legit on the street unemployed. The majority of AE flowthroughs aren't chomping at the bit to flow immediately, so I am hoping all parties can negotiate a way to give the furloughed pilots a shot before the FTs come.

 

[G4G5]

That seems to be the general assumption of what the arbitrator will say if he is forced to make a decision (meaning the 4 parties cant come up with a remedy of their own). It would be sad to see Eagle flowthroughs "recalled" ahead of the TWA/AA furloighees who are legit on the street unemployed. The majority of AE flowthroughs aren't chomping at the bit to flow immediately, so I am hoping all parties can negotiate a way to give the furloughed pilots a shot before the FTs come.

What you are saying makes sense. The problem is that ALPA which represents the Eagle pilots wants those seats. Most if not all of those 500+ seats are being held by the most senior Eagle pilots. Eagle still has around 50-70 guys on furlough.

ALPA wants movement on their seniority list for their members and it's my understanding that they want those guys off of the ALPA list and onto the APA's list ASAP.

They have approx 2600 pilots if 535 leave for AA that represents a little over 20% of their list. Thats a lot of new captain seats.

AMR will want the same thing, the because TWA pilots all come back at a much higher pay rate then the new first officers at Eagle.

For the 535 Eagle pilots its a wash. 17 year pay is $102 an hour but they get the line they want and they can fly as much as they want, in the left seat. If they transfer over to AA they get $110 an hour on the MD80 or $113 on the 737 (12 year fo pay). For all but the very, very senior they will be on reserve at 73 hours a month commuting to LGA or ORD as an FO for a very long time. And if things go as planned they get to walk a picket line next year.

Not sure if its a good deal but IMHO, all 4 parties want this behind them ASAP, which doesn't bode well for the folks currently on furlough.

 

[FO 4 Life]

For the 535 Eagle pilots its a wash. 17 year pay is $102 an hour but they get the line they want and they can fly as much as they want, in the left seat. If they transfer over to AA they get $110 an hour on the MD80 or $113 on the 737 (12 year fo pay). For all but the very, very senior they will be on reserve at 73 hours a month commuting to LGA or ORD as an FO for a very long time. And if things go as planned they get to walk a picket line next year.

Don't the Eagle pilots come over at 2nd year pay?

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Don't the Eagle pilots come over at 2nd year pay?

Thought the same thing when I read his post. Unless there is a buried clause or letter in the agreement, my 20 year AA guess is NF way.

 

[G4G5]

Why 2nd year pay and not probationary pay?

I was under the impression that they were full AMR employees and received seniority date for pay and vacation. I could be wrong about the pay, and I hope I am. If they come over at second year pay its a no brainier for them, stay at Eagle.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

I think maybe you just found the solution in keeping them at Eagle until the furloughs get a chance to come back. Money, pay them to stay at Eagle or pay them a higher wage at AA if they delay coming over.

 

[Flyby1206]

As Letter 3 states, all Eagle flowthroughs go over at yr 1 pay, but they keep sick time and vacation accrued I believe. That being said, the arbitrator ruled that the 244 FTs should have gone over June 2007, so that would in essence put them at year 3 pay on the AA scale, which is $90/hr for the MD80 and $92/hr for the 737.

18yr pay on the Eagle payscale is roughly $93-102/hr depending on equip. At Eagle we have a min guarantee of 72hrs for lineholders, and most of our lines are built to 80-90+hrs as opposed to AA with the 64hr guarantee for lineholders (im not sure how high they build your lines, but isnt there a cap around 83hrs/mo?)

The first year pay at AA is $35/hr and is a huge hit for all of the flowthroughs (I believe the majority are on yr18 pay at Eagle). It has been the major bone of contention for not wanting to flow.

 

[NavinRJohnson]

Recall Rights

Just curious: How long does an AA furloughee have for recall rights?

I know at CAL and UA it's 10 years. We are approaching that amount of time for some at American.... incredible.

 

[aa73]

Unlimited recall rights at AA.