Skiles on 3407

[livin'thesim]

From AvWeb:

15449's Jeff Skiles Takes on 3407 and Pilot Standards


Jeff Skiles was serving as first officer to Sully Sullenberger when US Airways Flight 1549 successfully ditched in the Hudson and last week he sat beside Scott Maurer, father of a victim of Continental Connection (Colgan) Flight 3407, to push for changes in minimum federal standards for pilots. While 1549 ended relatively well, all aboard Flight 3407, plus one on the ground, perished when that commuter flight fell into a Buffalo suburb early this year. Skiles said the cockpit transcript from Flight 3407 indicated to him that the pilots of that flight "had no idea what they were doing and shouldn't even have been there," GoUpstate.com reported. Skiles and Maurer held a press conference at the Maurers' home Thursday, asserting that standards for commercial pilots should be similar, regardless of how many passengers they're flying. "You used to have five years or more in the industry before you could even look at getting a job at a regional airline," said Skiles, who added that the "fast-food wages" at commuters means "you cannot get trained professional pilots" to fill those jobs. Skiles and Maurer are urging legislative action, and some feel there's more to the problem.

James Ray, media spokesman for the US Airline Pilots Association, argues that commuter carriers fly under the radar in that they don't compete for customers. They earn passengers through contracts with major airlines, which Ray says often go to the lowest bidder. Skiles told reporters that his paycheck and benefits account for less than $3.50 of each ticket's price, adding, "Would you pay that to have Sully and me up there in the cockpit?"

 

[SEVEN]

Good for him. Unfortunately the truth hurts. But he is right; that crew had no business operating that aircraft. The "people" that allowed the crew to operate that aircraft are to blame. Changes need to come. No pilot should ever stall a 121 aircraft and then fail to recover properly. Also, no "experienced" real airline pilot should land a 767 on a freakin taxiway. No professional "experienced " airline crew should ever overfly the destination for 150 miles either. Maybe Sully and his FO pal can come up with some ideas on how to prevent these "experienced" guys from putting our loved ones in serious danger!

 

[Jar Jar]

its easy to counter the argument for more experience in the regionals by pointing at recent mistakes in the majors. Instead, why not agree that both are unique problems which both need to be fixed. more experience, better quality pilots at regionals and less complacency in the majors are both goals which benefit everyone.

 

[SEVEN]

its easy to counter the argument for more experience in the regionals by pointing at recent mistakes in the majors. Instead, why not agree that both are unique problems which both need to be fixed. more experience, better quality pilots at regionals and less complacency in the majors are both goals which benefit everyone.

Bingo. Well said. Unfortunately, the powers that be never seem to get it right when it comes to fixing the real issues at hand. Way too much red tape and b.s.

 

[callowayhd]

double pilots salaries and you wont have any more dumb mistakes happeneing

 

[ASA_Aviator]

double pilots salaries and you wont have any more dumb mistakes happeneing

That is a mind numbingly stupid statement.

 

[SEVEN]

double pilots salaries and you wont have any more dumb mistakes happeneing

Yeah but then mommy and daddy can't take Billy and Susie to see Mickey Mouse for $99 Round Trip.

 

[Sandhawk]

Good for him. Unfortunately the truth hurts. But he is right; that crew had no business operating that aircraft. The "people" that allowed the crew to operate that aircraft are to blame. Changes need to come. No pilot should ever stall a 121 aircraft and then fail to recover properly. Also, no "experienced" real airline pilot should land a 767 on a freakin taxiway. No professional "experienced " airline crew should ever overfly the destination for 150 miles either. Maybe Sully and his FO pal can come up with some ideas on how to prevent these "experienced" guys from putting our loved ones in serious danger!

An experienced pilot might have pushed the throttles on his A320 to TOGA, thus getting some extra thrust out of his 1 engine running at idle thrust........instead of putting said airplane in the Hudson to prove that sh!t floats!!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

An experienced pilot might have pushed the throttles on his A320 to TOGA, thus getting some extra thrust out of his 1 engine running at idle thrust........instead of putting said airplane in the Hudson to prove that sh!t floats!!

The engine was at toga for a while but nothing was happening except the EGT rising.

The single engine that was still operating was capable of producing no more than idle thrust.

Care to retract your retarded statement?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That is a mind numbingly stupid statement.

You OK making half of what you should be getting paid as a pilot?

Stupid mistakes that were made years ago (albeit with much poorer technology) will continue to be made on a higher and higher incidence level as the race to the bottom continues.

 

[Sandhawk]

The engine was at toga for a while but nothing was happening except the EGT rising.

The single engine that was still operating was capable of producing no more than idle thrust.

Care to retract your retarded statement?

Nope, the thrust levers were never moved to the TOGA position.........

Read the Airbus Initial Report, oh non-airbus flyin double-breasted sky-god.

imp:

 

[ASA_Aviator]

You OK making half of what you should be getting paid as a pilot?

Stupid mistakes that were made years ago (albeit with much poorer technology) will continue to be made on a higher and higher incidence level as the race to the bottom continues.

Pay has nothing to do with it. The pay was higher (in real dollars) 30 years ago, and the system is MUCH safer now due to better training, better technology, etc..

People do stupid things regardless of what the pay is. If you want to increase safety, you'll need to do more than throw money at the problem.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Nope, the thrust levers were never moved to the TOGA position.........

Read the Airbus Initial Report, oh non-airbus flyin double-breasted sky-god.

imp:

My bad, they were in climb detent and it was non-responsive. Only EGT was rising with no spool response. What on earth would dumping more gas into it would have accomplished?

One of the worst things you can do to a barely surviving engine is screw aroudn with the power setting. You'll go from something that is producing vital electrical and hyd power, to another hunk of useless semi-burning metal. Don't screw with it.

Not to mention the first thing he did when they hit the birds was reach up and crank the APU. The guy was thinking ahead....

With that being said- this non-airbus flyin double-breasted sky-god stands by his original statement.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Pay has nothing to do with it. The pay was higher (in real dollars) 30 years ago, and the system is MUCH safer now due to better training, better technology, etc..

People do stupid things regardless of what the pay is. If you want to increase safety, you'll need to do more than throw money at the problem.

Training and technology has improved drastically thanks in large part to the previous decades of very highly paid employees.... which has offset much of the issues that would ahve been caused by the crap going on this decade.

The only thing they've done this decade is figure out what they can cut without (hopefully) killing too many people... we'll see if it continues to play out.

Dramatic outsourcing without investing properly in infrastructure works great- just ask Boeing!

Increasing pay to attract a more competitive pool for pilots never hurts. I'd rather have a well educated, well screened pilot than someone who's mom and dad forked out 100 grand at some pilot mill program with an RJ transition- how about you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Increasing pay to attract a more competitive pool for pilots never hurts. I'd rather have a well educated, well screened pilot than someone who's mom and dad forked out 100 grand at some pilot mill program with an RJ transition- how about you?

That argument would hold more water if the highly experienced "Sky Gods" would quit landing on taxiways at night and overflying their destination by hundreds of miles....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That argument would hold more water if the highly experienced "Sky Gods" would quit landing on taxiways at night and overflying their destination by hundreds of miles....

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The marco problem is we live in a market/commodity society. The only way we know how to fix this "pilot experience" problem is money. Why money? Because that is all we value.

If we had established other values besides money, as a democracy we could address them much better....

Mind blowing, I know....

 

[Poahi]

Pilots bashing pilots. Nothing changes. Who needs management to drive a stake through the heart of solidarity. The same greed and selfishness that brought you age 65 makes a public spectacle that shows the traveling public that flying is based on luck, not skill.

 

[wms]

Auto-throttles could have prevented Colgan 3407, and would be cheaper than giving pilots raises.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

In the ATL example, the only reason there wasn't a death was due to luck. Someone easily could have taxied onto the taxiway into their path.

 

[ohplease!]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

please tell us you're not going to try to say there is ANY reasonable explanation or excuse for landing on a taxiway.......at the "wrong" time of any day in ATL, there could easily have been HUNDREDS.....

"people that even realized something happened?"....seriously?...oh yeah, nobody realized that only by chance did their plane not land on the "money line" so its all good...no knowledge, no foul....man, thats a hell of a defense.

 

[CX880]

Pilots bashing pilots. Nothing changes. Who needs management to drive a stake through the heart of solidarity. The same greed and selfishness that brought you age 65 makes a public spectacle that shows the traveling public that flying is based on luck, not skill.

Right you are Yoda.

 

[CX880]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that.

No there isn't they landed on a taxiway. Someone could have pulled in while they were going 120 on bravo echo. The faa needs to change regs so that pilots look both ways even when taxing taxiways because there could be a 777 touching down.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

An experienced pilot might have pushed the throttles on his A320 to TOGA, thus getting some extra thrust out of his 1 engine running at idle thrust........instead of putting said airplane in the Hudson to prove that sh!t floats!!

It thought by design that the Airbus FBW system didn't allow the engines to go to TOGA thrust when the computers found a FODed engine?

With an engine FODed and no mechanical linkage then the engine(s) roll back to an engine idle setting. A non-Airbus (read Boeing) does have the mechanical linkage and thus allows ANY available power to be pulled from the engine.

Is this info different???

 

[Flightdawg]

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

None, but any professional pilot who doesn't see the danger of landing on a taxi and colliding with a vehicle or other aircraft or the inherent fuel issue caused by overflying the destination by an hour should reexamine their understanding of the situation.

The fact there were no injuries wasn't skill, it was luck.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

The only reason nobody died was because nobody was taxing out on Mike...There is no excuse for what they did...

 

[Kaman]

There is no monpoly on stupidtiy, complancency, lack of professionalism or negligance at any level of aviation. I have been involved in military and commercial aviation since 1979 and can say this with all sincerity and accuracy. The events of USAir on the Hudson and CJC 3407 in Buffalo are linked because of the timing of both events falling so close together.
Aviation is full of stories that are both equally as tragic as they are heroic. As a professional aviator I have a high amount of respect for the USAir crew. I do however, take some exception to their remarks on the level of proficiency at the regional airline level. If they had first-hand knowledge of the "dirty-little-secret" that is "single-level-of-safety", why did they wait until February 12, 2009 to speak out?
How can the FAA, ICAO, DoT and all the other agencies invloved with airline safety have not recognized that there was a problem with crew training, proficiency, hiring practices, etc...? Simply because of the financial pressures within the airline industry to maintain the status quo (cost vs. benefit analysis). The pilots of the so-called "majors" have thrown everyone else under the bus for their own self-serving reasons and will continue to do so. Doesn't make any of them bad people, it is just the reality of working in a highly competitive industry that has very few opportunities to advance into the higher paying positions.
I am at a loss as to how to solve the daunting problems facing the airline profession. It simply isn't the profession that it once was, and perhaps the "golden age" of aviaiton has long passed me by. I will say that there are a number of damned good "regional" airline pilots out there that can fly the heck out of an airplane, are very professional and deserve SO MUCH more from there "major" airline "brothers and sisters.

Rant complete...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The only reason nobody died was because nobody was taxing out on Mike...There is no excuse for what they did...

Turns out through ASAP that there have been numerous other landing attempts on M in similar lighting conditions in the preceding months (having to do with the green centerline lights being brighter htan the runway lights and appearing more white than green from a distance off, 2 stripes of lighter concrete 1000 feet down the taxiway, and the PAPI being on the right side of 27R).... all of the previous occurences recognized the issue and corrected. Add in the serious fatigue and pressure in DAL60, and they accidentally brought the landing to completion.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

There is no monpoly on stupidtiy, complancency, lack of professionalism or negligance at any level of aviation. I have been involved in military and commercial aviation since 1979 and can say this with all sincerity and accuracy. The events of USAir on the Hudson and CJC 3407 in Buffalo are linked because of the timing of both events falling so close together.
Aviation is full of stories that are both equally as tragic as they are heroic. As a professional aviator I have a high amount of respect for the USAir crew. I do however, take some exception to their remarks on the level of proficiency at the regional airline level. If they had first-hand knowledge of the "dirty-little-secret" that is "single-level-of-safety", why did they wait until February 12, 2009 to speak out?
How can the FAA, ICAO, DoT and all the other agencies invloved with airline safety have not recognized that there was a problem with crew training, proficiency, hiring practices, etc...? Simply because of the financial pressures within the airline industry to maintain the status quo (cost vs. benefit analysis). The pilots of the so-called "majors" have thrown everyone else under the bus for their own self-serving reasons and will continue to do so. Doesn't make any of them bad people, it is just the reality of working in a highly competitive industry that has very few opportunities to advance into the higher paying positions.
I am at a loss as to how to solve the daunting problems facing the airline profession. It simply isn't the profession that it once was, and perhaps the "golden age" of aviaiton has long passed me by. I will say that there are a number of damned good "regional" airline pilots out there that can fly the heck out of an airplane, are very professional and deserve SO MUCH more from there "major" airline "brothers and sisters.

Rant complete...

I agree- stupid pilot tricks occur at every carrier and every experience level.

The CJC and USair events did come at a very appropriate time to highlight the severe cuts and race to the lowest common denominator which has been occuring in this decade.

The dirty little secret certainly is there- ASA and the higher end regionals are exceptions to this, but the likes of Pinnacle, Colgan, Mesa... you name it, and there is one primary goal in that operation: train to check off the boxes and hopefully we havent cut enough corners to where someone dies.

The race to the bottom on pay and continual downpressure from outsourcing taken to the extreme is terrible and highly detrimental to safety...which will continue to rear it's ugly head.

I'm honestly surprised we don't have more pilots signing in drunk after all the cuts this decade.


The question is- where to we start? How do we begin reeling in the bottom? The 1500 hour rule does have an effect on experience (think about how much of a better pilot you were from 500 hours to 1500 hours, even just grinding it out as a CFI)- but it has more of an effect on supply. Reduced supply....well, you know.

There are many other steps that need to be taken- the mainline carriers need to reel in their outsourcing, and the mainline unions need to grow a pair of brass clangers and put the pressure on.

It's going to be a very long process getting the camel out of the tent.


Stupid pilot tricks will always happen- the key is keeping the frequency to a bare minimum and trying to ensure that they are of a benign nature.

As I said earlier, due to all the cuts- the only real training breakthroughs this decade have been learning how to check off the fewest boxes possible with the least amount of bent metal possible. That trend has to be reversed.

 

[dojetdriver]

Turns out through ASAP that there have been numerous other landing attempts on M in similar lighting conditions in the preceding months (having to do with the green centerline lights being brighter htan the runway lights and appearing more white than green from a distance off, 2 stripes of lighter concrete 1000 feet down the taxiway, and the PAPI being on the right side of 27R).... all of the previous occurences recognized the issue and corrected. Add in the serious fatigue and pressure in DAL60, and they accidentally brought the landing to completion.

And to repeat it. Nobody died because they were lucky, NOT good.