Skiles on 3407

[ohplease!]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

please tell us you're not going to try to say there is ANY reasonable explanation or excuse for landing on a taxiway.......at the "wrong" time of any day in ATL, there could easily have been HUNDREDS.....

"people that even realized something happened?"....seriously?...oh yeah, nobody realized that only by chance did their plane not land on the "money line" so its all good...no knowledge, no foul....man, thats a hell of a defense.

 

[CX880]

Pilots bashing pilots. Nothing changes. Who needs management to drive a stake through the heart of solidarity. The same greed and selfishness that brought you age 65 makes a public spectacle that shows the traveling public that flying is based on luck, not skill.

Right you are Yoda.

 

[CX880]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that.

No there isn't they landed on a taxiway. Someone could have pulled in while they were going 120 on bravo echo. The faa needs to change regs so that pilots look both ways even when taxing taxiways because there could be a 777 touching down.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

An experienced pilot might have pushed the throttles on his A320 to TOGA, thus getting some extra thrust out of his 1 engine running at idle thrust........instead of putting said airplane in the Hudson to prove that sh!t floats!!

It thought by design that the Airbus FBW system didn't allow the engines to go to TOGA thrust when the computers found a FODed engine?

With an engine FODed and no mechanical linkage then the engine(s) roll back to an engine idle setting. A non-Airbus (read Boeing) does have the mechanical linkage and thus allows ANY available power to be pulled from the engine.

Is this info different???

 

[Flightdawg]

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

None, but any professional pilot who doesn't see the danger of landing on a taxi and colliding with a vehicle or other aircraft or the inherent fuel issue caused by overflying the destination by an hour should reexamine their understanding of the situation.

The fact there were no injuries wasn't skill, it was luck.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll give you the overflight, however the taxiway situation...well- there's a lot more to that. Let the investigation come out.

Oh.... I forgot. How many people died in those two examples? Injuries? People that even realized something happened?

I don't have those numbers, do you?

The only reason nobody died was because nobody was taxing out on Mike...There is no excuse for what they did...

 

[Kaman]

There is no monpoly on stupidtiy, complancency, lack of professionalism or negligance at any level of aviation. I have been involved in military and commercial aviation since 1979 and can say this with all sincerity and accuracy. The events of USAir on the Hudson and CJC 3407 in Buffalo are linked because of the timing of both events falling so close together.
Aviation is full of stories that are both equally as tragic as they are heroic. As a professional aviator I have a high amount of respect for the USAir crew. I do however, take some exception to their remarks on the level of proficiency at the regional airline level. If they had first-hand knowledge of the "dirty-little-secret" that is "single-level-of-safety", why did they wait until February 12, 2009 to speak out?
How can the FAA, ICAO, DoT and all the other agencies invloved with airline safety have not recognized that there was a problem with crew training, proficiency, hiring practices, etc...? Simply because of the financial pressures within the airline industry to maintain the status quo (cost vs. benefit analysis). The pilots of the so-called "majors" have thrown everyone else under the bus for their own self-serving reasons and will continue to do so. Doesn't make any of them bad people, it is just the reality of working in a highly competitive industry that has very few opportunities to advance into the higher paying positions.
I am at a loss as to how to solve the daunting problems facing the airline profession. It simply isn't the profession that it once was, and perhaps the "golden age" of aviaiton has long passed me by. I will say that there are a number of damned good "regional" airline pilots out there that can fly the heck out of an airplane, are very professional and deserve SO MUCH more from there "major" airline "brothers and sisters.

Rant complete...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The only reason nobody died was because nobody was taxing out on Mike...There is no excuse for what they did...

Turns out through ASAP that there have been numerous other landing attempts on M in similar lighting conditions in the preceding months (having to do with the green centerline lights being brighter htan the runway lights and appearing more white than green from a distance off, 2 stripes of lighter concrete 1000 feet down the taxiway, and the PAPI being on the right side of 27R).... all of the previous occurences recognized the issue and corrected. Add in the serious fatigue and pressure in DAL60, and they accidentally brought the landing to completion.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

There is no monpoly on stupidtiy, complancency, lack of professionalism or negligance at any level of aviation. I have been involved in military and commercial aviation since 1979 and can say this with all sincerity and accuracy. The events of USAir on the Hudson and CJC 3407 in Buffalo are linked because of the timing of both events falling so close together.
Aviation is full of stories that are both equally as tragic as they are heroic. As a professional aviator I have a high amount of respect for the USAir crew. I do however, take some exception to their remarks on the level of proficiency at the regional airline level. If they had first-hand knowledge of the "dirty-little-secret" that is "single-level-of-safety", why did they wait until February 12, 2009 to speak out?
How can the FAA, ICAO, DoT and all the other agencies invloved with airline safety have not recognized that there was a problem with crew training, proficiency, hiring practices, etc...? Simply because of the financial pressures within the airline industry to maintain the status quo (cost vs. benefit analysis). The pilots of the so-called "majors" have thrown everyone else under the bus for their own self-serving reasons and will continue to do so. Doesn't make any of them bad people, it is just the reality of working in a highly competitive industry that has very few opportunities to advance into the higher paying positions.
I am at a loss as to how to solve the daunting problems facing the airline profession. It simply isn't the profession that it once was, and perhaps the "golden age" of aviaiton has long passed me by. I will say that there are a number of damned good "regional" airline pilots out there that can fly the heck out of an airplane, are very professional and deserve SO MUCH more from there "major" airline "brothers and sisters.

Rant complete...

I agree- stupid pilot tricks occur at every carrier and every experience level.

The CJC and USair events did come at a very appropriate time to highlight the severe cuts and race to the lowest common denominator which has been occuring in this decade.

The dirty little secret certainly is there- ASA and the higher end regionals are exceptions to this, but the likes of Pinnacle, Colgan, Mesa... you name it, and there is one primary goal in that operation: train to check off the boxes and hopefully we havent cut enough corners to where someone dies.

The race to the bottom on pay and continual downpressure from outsourcing taken to the extreme is terrible and highly detrimental to safety...which will continue to rear it's ugly head.

I'm honestly surprised we don't have more pilots signing in drunk after all the cuts this decade.


The question is- where to we start? How do we begin reeling in the bottom? The 1500 hour rule does have an effect on experience (think about how much of a better pilot you were from 500 hours to 1500 hours, even just grinding it out as a CFI)- but it has more of an effect on supply. Reduced supply....well, you know.

There are many other steps that need to be taken- the mainline carriers need to reel in their outsourcing, and the mainline unions need to grow a pair of brass clangers and put the pressure on.

It's going to be a very long process getting the camel out of the tent.


Stupid pilot tricks will always happen- the key is keeping the frequency to a bare minimum and trying to ensure that they are of a benign nature.

As I said earlier, due to all the cuts- the only real training breakthroughs this decade have been learning how to check off the fewest boxes possible with the least amount of bent metal possible. That trend has to be reversed.

 

[dojetdriver]

Turns out through ASAP that there have been numerous other landing attempts on M in similar lighting conditions in the preceding months (having to do with the green centerline lights being brighter htan the runway lights and appearing more white than green from a distance off, 2 stripes of lighter concrete 1000 feet down the taxiway, and the PAPI being on the right side of 27R).... all of the previous occurences recognized the issue and corrected. Add in the serious fatigue and pressure in DAL60, and they accidentally brought the landing to completion.

And to repeat it. Nobody died because they were lucky, NOT good.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

And to repeat it. Nobody died because they were lucky, NOT good.

Absolutely.

I didn't present my point earlier very well at all. My issue is guys are justifying the terrible pay and working conditions with "we're just as good as you are!"

My issue is not that- there are many many absolutely fantastic pilots at the regionals. The issue is that if they are promoted as the exact same level of safety and all other attributes of measure, then why pay any FO more than 30 or 40,000 or any CA over 70-100?

It's rediculous and that has to be changed. The overall mgmt structure at regionals is whatever it takes to save a penny...

Read my previous rant for further thoughts on the subject.

Peanuckle out....

 

[dojetdriver]

Absolutely.

I didn't present my point earlier very well at all. My issue is guys are justifying the terrible pay and working conditions with "we're just as good as you are!"

My issue is not that- there are many many absolutely fantastic pilots at the regionals. The issue is that if they are promoted as the exact same level of safety and all other attributes of measure, then why pay any FO more than 30 or 40,000 or any CA over 70-100?

It's rediculous and that has to be changed. The overall mgmt structure at regionals is whatever it takes to save a penny...

Read my previous rant for further thoughts on the subject.

Peanuckle out....

Wasn't what I was getting at. It seems perfectly acceptable here (and other places) to say that "hey, at least NOBODY was killed, so what they did wasn't bad, just forget about it". Whether talking about the DAL north or south incident.

Sorry, but that's just a bullsh1t argument. Again, they didn't kill anybody because they were lucky, NOT good. Competent/experienced aviators can kill people just as fast and just as good and those that aren't. What would you say about AA in Colombia? Were they really substandard and it FINALLY caught up to them?

If a plane was on the taxi way, or pulled out onto that taxi way, what would be the argument? I can see it now;

"Well, they were experienced major airline pilots, wasn't their fault somebody was on the taxi way"

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wasn't what I was getting at. It seems perfectly acceptable here (and other places) to say that "hey, at least NOBODY was killed, so what they did wasn't bad, just forget about it". Whether talking about the DAL north or south incident.

Sorry, but that's just a bullsh1t argument. Again, they didn't kill anybody because they were lucky, NOT good. Competent/experienced aviators can kill people just as fast and just as good and those that aren't. What would you say about AA in Colombia? Were they really substandard and it FINALLY caught up to them?

If a plane was on the taxi way, or pulled out onto that taxi way, what would be the argument? I can see it now;

"Well, they were experienced major airline pilots, wasn't their fault somebody was on the taxi way"

Made a few rediculous logical jumps and put some words into my mouth...

The cali guys got in what is now the classic rush to save a few minutes. We have strict procedures now to ensure otherwise in mountainous errors as well as training in regards to FMS waypoint lat/long suggestions. You've seen it yourself in FMS groundschool as a result.

Don't become part of a training video....


Like i said, I didn't mean to make a point of "at least nobody was killed."

My issues are what I stated above. You happy with your outsourced wages and living situation?

 

[dojetdriver]

Made a few rediculous logical jumps and put some words into my mouth...

Gear down there big shifter, I NEVER put ANY words in YOUR mouth. Just said I'm tired of that argument.

The cali guys got in what is now the classic rush to save a few minutes. We have strict procedures now to ensure otherwise in mountainous errors as well as training in regards to FMS waypoint lat/long suggestions. You've seen it yourself in FMS groundschool as a result.

Strange, this sounds eerily familiar to somebody else on another forum, but OK, we can go with this one. The AA guys got into trouble because of a lengthy error chain. And are you telling me that in the history of FMS aircraft, there was NEVER a verify/crosscheck procedure in place BEFORE the AA wreck? For some reason, I doubt it.

Don't become part of a training video....

Don't intend to.

Like i said, I didn't mean to make a point of "at least nobody was killed."

Go back and reread your posts.

You happy with your outsourced wages and living situation?

Nope, never said I was. How many concessions you been through? I voted NO on all four I've had to take, how many you been trough?

As soon as the first chance to get out comes, I'm going. Getting into this pre 9/11 and going though multiple displacements, a furlough, etc, hasn't helped.

How much of that did you get to experience before going to DAL?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Gear down there big shifter, I NEVER put ANY words in YOUR mouth. Just said I'm tired of that argument.



Strange, this sounds eerily familiar to somebody else on another forum, but OK, we can go with this one. The AA guys got into trouble because of a lengthy error chain. And are you telling me that in the history of FMS aircraft, there was NEVER a verify/crosscheck procedure in place BEFORE the AA wreck? For some reason, I doubt it.



Don't intend to.




Go back and reread your posts.



Nope, never said I was. How many concessions you been through? I voted NO on all four I've had to take, how many you been trough?

As soon as the first chance to get out comes, I'm going. Getting into this pre 9/11 and going though multiple displacements, a furlough, etc, hasn't helped.

How much of that did you get to experience before going to DAL?

1. Thanks, gear down. Can i put anything in the trash bag for you?

2. what other forum? There is always a lengthy error chain, the big issues were being rushed and then selecting the first waypoint at the top of the screen. Smart guys verified it.... some others, well in this case snagged a mountain. Max power, spoilers in....

4ish- Like i said, I was trying to make a point but it was blown.

5 and so on- I haven't- ended up being lucky and bought low, as far as my career is concerned. Grown up around this industry and my motive is to make it better and with better pay than before. Displacements suck, furloughs suck worse. Good luck getting out.... now is the time. You'll be buying low.

I'm going to try to make this a better place for a career.

 

[dojetdriver]

2. what other forum? There is always a lengthy error chain, the big issues were being rushed and then selecting the first waypoint at the top of the screen. Smart guys verified it.... some others, well in this case snagged a mountain. Max power, spoilers in....

So know you're saying "they were trying to save time" to agreeing there was an long error chain?

4ish- Like i said, I was trying to make a point but it was blown.

And you were doing it poorly, just like trying to say that nobody got killed on the taxi way, so it's really no big deal. Really? You've been through "4ish" in your time at Pinnacle/DAL?

5 and so on- I haven't- ended up being lucky

Not everybody does. It's like these examples, some are lucky, and it's always good to be lucky.

and bought low, as far as my career is concerned. Grown up around this industry and my motive is to make it better and with better pay than before. Displacements suck, furloughs suck worse. Good luck getting out.... now is the time. You'll be buying low.

I'm going to try to make this a better place for a career.

If you're trying to make the industry better, why go to work at Pinnacle? I could have gone there when I got F'd from my last job, no freaking way, not with that CBA.

 

[Flightdawg]

There is no monpoly on stupidtiy, complancency, lack of professionalism or negligance at any level of aviation. I have been involved in military and commercial aviation since 1979 and can say this with all sincerity and accuracy. The events of USAir on the Hudson and CJC 3407 in Buffalo are linked because of the timing of both events falling so close together.

Well said. In our business, a pilot can do everything right and still die. Others can screw up and still live. Not bashing, but comparing, the Colgan crew is being slammed for breaking sterile cockpit. The Cactus crew did the same. Why aren't they slammed too? Obviously because everybody lived.

As pilots we know that we can save a passenger's life 10 times over on a flight but if we bang it in on landing, we're a lousy pilot in their eyes. We can almost kill them 10 times over on a flight out but if we grease it on, we're the next Chuck Yeager as far as they are concerned.

Despite all the hoopla, the good news is that informed people really are helping make positive changes. We should ignore the public dog and pony shows and see what actually changes in the regs and our procedures.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Well said. In our business, a pilot can do everything right and still die. Others can screw up and still live. Not bashing, but comparing, the Colgan crew is being slammed for breaking sterile cockpit. The Cactus crew did the same. Why aren't they slammed too? Obviously because everybody lived.

The Colgan guys barely broke sterile. There was nothin wrong with their conversation.

It was the poor airmanship that deserves the harsh criticism.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Gear down there big shifter, I NEVER put ANY words in YOUR mouth. Just said I'm tired of that argument.



Strange, this sounds eerily familiar to somebody else on another forum, but OK, we can go with this one. The AA guys got into trouble because of a lengthy error chain. And are you telling me that in the history of FMS aircraft, there was NEVER a verify/crosscheck procedure in place BEFORE the AA wreck? For some reason, I doubt it.



Don't intend to.




Go back and reread your posts.



Nope, never said I was. How many concessions you been through? I voted NO on all four I've had to take, how many you been trough?

As soon as the first chance to get out comes, I'm going. Getting into this pre 9/11 and going though multiple displacements, a furlough, etc, hasn't helped.

How much of that did you get to experience before going to DAL?

This site should really change it's name to pissed off RJ drivers who just want to b!tch at everyone and disagree with everything anyone says unless they too are lamenting about their crappy situation in life.

Sucks you got hired when you did and weren't able to make anything of it in 9 years, while many others did. Quit crying about it and make your situation better.

 

[Kaman]

Sadly, very sadly it was basic airmanship and vigilance that conspired to bring 3407 to it's demise. The sky even more so than the sea is very unforgiving of any mistakes, errors in judgment and even worse contempt. Instincts honed in flying basic airplanes also played a role, and will continue to rear it's ugly head as we march further into the world of automation. Nature doesn't know or care about what FMS model is on board the airplane, or what autoland capability. We as a profession need to demand that we recieve and are required to practice and demonstrate basic airmanship. Ultimately, when things go bad it is all that can get us out of a tight spot.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead