Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Reasons that ALPA may be supporting MPL:
It may be a better way of training airline pilots.
It may be that the coming shortage of pilots will overwhelm the system (what Boeing says), and that changes need to be made in our training system to support the demand for pilots in the future.
It may be that ALPA figures (like the Age 65 change was, or the upcoming Flight/Duty/Rest changes) that it is inevitable, so it is better to support it and have input into how the new training system will work, than to oppose it and have no input at all.
There could be an almost infinite number of other reasons why they would support it.

I assume there is documentation from ALPA spelling out their support for the program? Of course, you can always disbelieve the press release(s), and think that ALPA's reason(s) were other than what they published.

I personally think that pilot training could be, and should be, drastically improved, but switching to or adding an MPL track doesn't guarantee any improvement in the final product. It depends on a large number of factors.

cliff
NBO

 

[Fubijaakr]

Ask Lufthansa how it works.

 

[imacdog]

It may be that the coming shortage of pilots will overwhelm the system (what Boeing says), and that changes need to be made in our training system to support the demand for pilots in the future.

Get real.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You flew the A7... cool stuff...

You wanna know "then what?" Rez? I'll tell you "then what." You refuse to put up with the nonsense. As a group. Indeed, the whole idea of collective bargaining is to refuse to put up with the nonsense - and to oppose management and whatever political forces they may amass -together.

How? Especailly after ALPA.

Throughout my experience, ALPA has been wholly ineffective in building the cohesion necessary among pilots - as a guild - to act in opposition to those forces. Such describes ALPA's abject failure. Such also is the reason I walked away from this profession after 22 years to become a lawyer.

Perhaps your expectations of what ALPA should be were misaligned?

You are right, ALPA can be more effective....

You (as a seeming representative of ALPA here in these forums) really need to get your head around what the term "organized labor" has historically meant, and should continue to mean.

Still holding out hope that ALPA might someday get it figured out,

Felix

The issue is if ALPA is no good, then better or different representation is needed. I posited the question... 'after ALPA is gone, then what'.

You haven't really explained that part...

USAPA is not better. Neither is APA, SWAPA, IPA, IBT. These groups have the advantage of small one pilot group representation. But we've seen FedEx and CAL leave and come back....

One problem with ALPA is contentment with the status quo with the leadership. The other problem is the memberships' apathy and waiting around for someone to do something..... how long are they going to wait?

 

[Flopgut]

But we've seen FedEx and CAL leave and come back....

You saw American leave as well. And I doubt they are ever coming back. I so appreciated the way APA fought 65 like their membership wanted them to do. In my book APA is better.

ALPA's only chance IMHO is to suffer through the last late 70s hire, baby boomer member and see what we have left. Just about every dispicable anti union act that has happened in ALPA has been because of these pilots. When thye were junior they wrecked merger policy and when they were senior they screwed with retirement age. I don't know what their final act will be, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Tell you this: I'm happy with CAL ALPA. I think IACP could have managed things to this point well enough. I have zero anxiety about a possible "no ALPA" scenario. If ALPA's current leadership, with the current political climate, can't manage duty time overhaul to a clear victory for pilots, close it down.

 

[PCL_128]

You saw American leave as well. And I doubt they are ever coming back.

I think they'll probably be back in 10-15 years, possibly less.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You saw American leave as well. And I doubt they are ever coming back. I so appreciated the way APA fought 65 like their membership wanted them to do. In my book APA is better.

Why did the American guys leave? It was ego's and pride. Pretty much the same with USAPA. The money those USAIR guys are losing monthly because of pride is not worth it. Do they want to take care of their families or be right? They want to be right.

APA on age 65? They took a position but how effective was it? Anybody can say anything... but what influence did it have?

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA. The AMR (all of us actually) pilots are going to be dealing with globalization forces that will force them to ally with international pilot groups.

ALPA's only chance IMHO is to suffer through the last late 70s hire, baby boomer member and see what we have left. Just about every despicable anti union act that has happened in ALPA has been because of these pilots. When thye were junior they wrecked merger policy and when they were senior they screwed with retirement age. I don't know what their final act will be, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Valid point... but this is politics unfortunately. What are the real alternatives? The more pilot groups ALPA represents to more conflicts it will have. The question is are pilot groups better off as indy groups?

With the impact of globalization, being a in house group like SWAPA, APA and IPA is in my opinion is dangerous. It is not a matter of just operating to foreign cities. The impact of what labor group is going to do the flying is the issue.

Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

Tell you this: I'm happy with CAL ALPA. I think IACP could have managed things to this point well enough. I have zero anxiety about a possible "no ALPA" scenario. If ALPA's current leadership, with the current political climate, can't manage duty time overhaul to a clear victory for pilots, close it down.

Well, what are the other in house unions doing to manage duty time? CAPA is there... but that is a point. They have formed a coalition of pilot groups, not unlike ALPA's MECs.

Again, with ALPA representing so many pilot groups, like the 50 states, conflict is inevitable. The good leaders will use conflict to build trust and respect and effectiveness. This is no easy task and is not exclusive of ALPA. This is a human dynamics realm that effects any organization. Don't put the onus on ALPA....

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Again, with ALPA representing so many pilot groups, like the 50 states, conflict is inevitable. The good leaders will use conflict to build trust and respect and effectiveness. This is no easy task and is not exclusive of ALPA. This is a human dynamics realm that effects any organization. Don't put the onus on ALPA....

This is the same problem with both the Dems and Reps. Bother parties have quite a few members that are farther left and right than the mainstream, and, the bigger the organization is, the harder it is to make everyone happy, and the more compromise there is. If the leadership isn't up to the task, then the large organization will break apart.

The best example of the larger organization breaking up is Religion. We, here on Earth, have one God, but how many religions are there. With Christianity, how many varietes of Christian religion do we have.

I think it is better to have ALPA represent ALL US pilots, but it is NOT easy!!!

cliff
NBO

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why did the American guys leave? It was ego's and pride.

Here are some facts to counter Rez's ALPA cheerleading:

http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAPA/Background/apa_the_details.asp

ALPA has always tried to silence dissenting opinions...It will be it's downfall....

 

[Skywest Pylot]

ALPA has always tried to silence dissenting opinions...It will be it's downfall....

I have to agree with Joe on this one. ALPA National has COMPLETELY lost touch with the majority of its membership. Why has there not been a poll of some type on Max Daily Flight Time, Max Duty Time or MPL? Prater does not want our opinion and doesn't seem to care what we think. IMO, unless something significant changes, pilot groups will continue to splinter off until ALPA is irrelevant. People don't like taxation without representation. Unfortunately for me that sums up ALPA National. Prater has got to go.

 

[PCL_128]

Flight time/duty time is being decided by science. We would get no involvement in the process if we tried to allow majority rule to decide something that is supposed to be science-based.

As far as MPL, I would imagine that ALPA would poll the membership before it becomes an issue, but that's a long way down the road. MPL isn't even on the radar screen yet.

 

[igneousy2]

ALPA will not poll because of the fiasco of the age 65 BS. They ALREADY know what they are going to do so no sense risking a poll that will be against them.

I have been a long time ALPA defender not as ALPA per say but because it's our union. However, our union is BROKEN. ALPA has forgotten what it's primary job is. It is not safety, It's not fuel efficiency, or Material Arrestor Beds, or what the training programs look like, It is preserving this profesion...or i'll put it more bluntly...ALPA's job is to ensure the members extract the highest career earnings possible. ALPA should only spend resources on other things when it helps the profesion. ALPA has forgotten that. Look at how many frekin committees we have...we have R & I, safety, engineering, jumpseat, and on and on but where is the PAY or the JOB PRESERVATION committees? Those are the only things that should be important to ALPA, safety is secondary...

If I want to donante money to SAFETY I'll donate to the Air Safety Foundation...I pay the 1.9% first and foremost so our union can protect my chosen proffesion period.

 

[Flopgut]

APA on age 65? They took a position but how effective was it? Anybody can say anything... but what influence did it have?

APA had influence, they just didn't win. What they have now is credibility, which is short supply at ALPA. 65 was beat. Nobody thought it was going to get pulled out of the transportation bill.

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA.

Sign me up for that! I would much rather send money to APA.


Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

And it would be superfulous if ALPA would have followed them in the first place!

So I like your idea. Let's sign up with APA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

APA had influence, they just didn't win. What they have now is credibility, which is short supply at ALPA. 65 was beat. Nobody thought it was going to get pulled out of the transportation bill.

You are going to have to show me the APA influence. How many congressmen voted against age 65?

The APA will be back. or ALPA can merge with the APA.

Sign me up for that! I would much rather send money to APA.

Well, I spoke about needing representation on the int'l scene, but you didn't include that in your selective quotes.

But hey... convince that the APA is way to go, all while addressing the fact that they are a one pilot group union and compare that to ALPA being a multi pilot group union representing regionals as well.....

Basically if the APA represented 55,000 pilots including mainline and regionals, and ALPA represented one mainline pilot group... you'd be saying APA stinks and sign me up for ALPA....

Currently ALPA is working on putting in LPPs or Labor Protection Provisions is COngressional legislation. This is huge.

And it would be superfulous if ALPA would have followed them in the first place!

Explain.

So I like your idea. Let's sign up with APA.

The same problems would exist with a large organization representing multiple pilot groups including regionals. It is not the name on sign. It is the dynamics of the group....

 

[Mamma]

Obviously you know little of fighting dirty or for fighting for effect. How would a commercial aired during prime time showing reps/senators who are going to vote for something ALPA says is flat out unsafe? The commercial could show someones kids getting on a plane crewed by an inexperienced pilot (new MPL'er) and an old worn out captain. How about Prater getting on the "Today Show," "The View" and "Good Morning America" and telling all the soccer moms how unsafe flying could become due to this or that. All I am saying is there are ways to PUSH for your agenda rather than being reactionary or concessionary. 55,000 flying professionals who millions of people put their lives in the hands of could get their point out. ALPA could have made the Colgan crash their own "Willie Horton" to gain concessions. People CARE about what professional pilots think because they trust us to get them from A to B safely. Any time something happens in regards to a plane accident, start counting how many friends and neighbors start seeking your opinion on the matter....

Negative. This will not happen because it is suicide. Wanting or believe this is a solution is a false consciousness.

55,000 pilots are but a drop in the national ocean. There are 300 million consumers, plus the international market that want what ALPA wants but they don't want to pay for it.

Pilots are black and white guys. When the put a control column input or flip a switch they expect a direct predictable result.

Politics is the opposite. Grey and uncertain. Democracy is slow and arduous. Unlike 99% flights that are wins in every landing... politics is sometimes a win and sometimes a loss....

One of the major problems with Air Line Pilots is they don't like politics, yet it is everything when it comes to their career.

No one ever said during flight training "I hope I am politically effective in my Air Line Career"