No furloughs at Delta!

[enuffalready]

Time will tell! Are you on the bottom of some list?

This time I would be worried if I was in the bottom 5%. We at DAL are still leaner than pre 9-11. There is a heck of a lot less fat to cut.

As for the regionals. Don the flack jacket. I am not sure if you will see many jets replace the 50 seat flying. (DAL's goal is to replace three 50 seaters with one MD-90. We are looking at having 50 on them in two to three years)[/QUOTE]


I agree an MD 90 full is more efficient, but management is not going to let regional feed die and the top 1/3 is not going to give up quality of life and use their capital to kill it. I am still suprised that ASA didnt go get the new 500 series ATR 72's. Trade the 50 seaters for new ATR 500's. Delta guys forget that they have to compete with other airlines too. If another major concedes more scope and Delta doesnt fall in line then they would be at a disadvantage. Remember, almost 50% of domestic traffic is regional feed. If you put a 175 at delta and american or airtran doesnt, then you are at a disadvantage

 

[ACL65PILOT]

This time I would be worried if I was in the bottom 5%. We at DAL are still leaner than pre 9-11. There is a heck of a lot less fat to cut.

As for the regionals. Don the flack jacket. I am not sure if you will see many jets replace the 50 seat flying. (DAL's goal is to replace three 50 seaters with one MD-90. We are looking at having 50 on them in two to three years)

I agree an MD 90 full is more efficient, but management is not going to let regional feed die and the top 1/3 is not going to give up quality of life and use their capital to kill it. I am still suprised that ASA didnt go get the new 500 series ATR 72's. Trade the 50 seaters for new ATR 500's. Delta guys forget that they have to compete with other airlines too. If another major concedes more scope and Delta doesnt fall in line then they would be at a disadvantage. Remember, almost 50% of domestic traffic is regional feed. If you put a 175 at delta and american or airtran doesnt, then you are at a disadvantage[/QUOTE]


Not entirely true.
AAI will not, and we will be head to head with them with the 9. Not like airplanes I might add.
Most majors have a long way to go to get to our level of scope. AMR and CAL have to give up 76 and CAL 70 seats before they get to us.

Fact is that costs at the regional are very close to our Legacy costs. Add to that, the margins and as management is discovering it is cheaper to in-source and our union will help.
The 50 does not make money. The 70 and 76 seat jets are not great performers either. The push for the six first class seats was for our business traveler and award redemption. Normally you get two revenue passengers in those seats per flight. Not enough to justify the costs along. It is all about the loyal customers.

I do see a push for scope to 100 seat. If they do not get it, the regionals will be a different animal in five years. The is what I saw when I was at EV, and left because of it. I was in the top 300 with a great QOL. I was very concerned that it would only last in to my 40's. In effect about 25 years shy of where in needed to last.

I would love to see all DCI pilots just given mainline numbers, but that ain't going to happen. I am a small voice and there are many louder ones here that want a prenup. Maybe it will happen.

In closing all I have to say is watch out for the Bi-lateral flow sale job. It is a last ditch effort to reduce DCI costs by resetting your seniority when you come to mainline. It is a cost saver and it is the only reason management would agree to it.

 

[Speedtape]

Replacing 3 50 seaters with an MD-90 is not a good business plan for alot of reasons. I doubt seriously that it is being considered.

The 700/900 is a profitable airframe. In addition, it allows hi-yield passengers to be captured without discounting a third or more of the seats on a narrow body. The 700/900 bring more flexibility in frequency and allowing service in non peak times where a narrow body would not make sense. It's another layer of flying and will not go away.

100 seat scope relief--this will be determined by how bad the economy gets. As you mentioned, within your pilot group, there is not a singular or common position on scope. No one in the upper half wants to give up pay or benefits and will protect these things at all costs. Also, there are those that would rather protect the pay and benefits on the larger equipment at all cost. So, the turf war will be internal on future scope. Personally, I don't ever see scope getting more restrictive.

The Bi-lateral flow sale job you mentioned, is simply the repackaging of something tried at the turn of the century. Interestingly enough, it too occurred right before the Delta furlough. Most regional pilots saw quickly how that could have been disasterous. From what small details I have heard, it is simply a strategy for your MEC to help the Company and thus receive someting in return to harness or further control costs on the Regional level. I see the concept as nothing more than a Trojan Horse and championed by self-serving people for their own benefit--within ALPA. Joe Merchant, are you listening?

If there is future hiring, let the conventional system work. I don't see your HR allowing any kind of automatic flow to exist. It would go against the grain for them to lose control of the hiring.

Thanks for your last paragraph. It gives the true intent of that campaign.

 

[lineflyer1]

First class seats exist on regional jets? LOL!

Real first class seat disappeared with the B727, L1011, DC10 747. There were some seats.

If capacity is measured by seats flown a 10 percent reduction of seat capacity would a titanic hit if it all came from regional aircraft. It will be interesting to see what segmant Delta removes that capacity from.

With a 10 percent cut in system wide flying and 12000 pilots on board How is Delta not going to furlough with a surplus of 1200 pilots.

Delta won't find 1200 pilots to retire early or take time out so they must transfer some seat capacity from regional to mainline to avoid furloughs.

CaL is not far behind, Rumors have it that CAL is going to furlough 1000 flight attendants this fall so the pilot hits can't be far behind over there either.

This snow ball is is getting bigger by the minute.

 

[Speedtape]

Time will tell! Are you on the bottom of some list?

This time I would be worried if I was in the bottom 5%. We at DAL are still leaner than pre 9-11. There is a heck of a lot less fat to cut.

As for the regionals. Don the flack jacket. I am not sure if you will see many jets replace the 50 seat flying. (DAL's goal is to replace three 50 seaters with one MD-90. We are looking at having 50 on them in two to three years)[/QUOTE]

What happened to the loads in CVG when Comair went on strike? Feed is critical! The lack of feed during that strike shut down CVG!

Granted, there may have been too many 50 seaters, but eliminating them or reducing them to some small number would be self-destructive!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

This time I would be worried if I was in the bottom 5%. We at DAL are still leaner than pre 9-11. There is a heck of a lot less fat to cut.

As for the regionals. Don the flack jacket. I am not sure if you will see many jets replace the 50 seat flying. (DAL's goal is to replace three 50 seaters with one MD-90. We are looking at having 50 on them in two to three years)

What happened to the loads in CVG when Comair went on strike? Feed is critical! The lack of feed during that strike shut down CVG!

Granted, there may have been too many 50 seaters, but eliminating them or reducing them to some small number would be self-destructive![/QUOTE]


I agree that feed is critical. Without it DAL becomes PanAm. They know it too.
Fact is that our route guys like the large RJ's. To a point. They are as they put it good for the netting effect of cities like PIA. I do not see the 76 seat market getting much bigger. There are none on order, options yes, but not on order.
They have a decent CASM, but they really are a bridge to a 100 seat jet that can perform much like the DC-9 has. Where that will be depends on how selfish the upper half of the pilot group is. I honestly think that scope sales like we have seen are a dead issue. It is the #1 issue for the majority of this group. Do not forget that it is the #1 issue for 90% of the NWA guys. Add the bottom 50% of the DAL-S list to that and you have one very angry group.
If this proves successful, it will bennifit all of our careers.

As for the MD-90 thing. That came right out of route management's mouth. These are the individuals that really run everything. Keep that in mind. I have been told in the first person that they fear getting burned by the 70-76 seat market like they did by the 50 seat market. It might the reason for the seletive growth of this segment of the market.

 

[enuffalready]

I agree that feed is critical. Without it DAL becomes PanAm. They know it too.
Fact is that our route guys like the large RJ's. To a point. They are as they put it good for the netting effect of cities like PIA. I do not see the 76 seat market getting much bigger. There are none on order, options yes, but not on order.
They have a decent CASM, but they really are a bridge to a 100 seat jet that can perform much like the DC-9 has. Where that will be depends on how selfish the upper half of the pilot group is. I honestly think that scope sales like we have seen are a dead issue. It is the #1 issue for the majority of this group. Do not forget that it is the #1 issue for 90% of the NWA guys. Add the bottom 50% of the DAL-S list to that and you have one very angry group.
If this proves successful, it will bennifit all of our careers.

As for the MD-90 thing. That came right out of route management's mouth. These are the individuals that really run everything. Keep that in mind. I have been told in the first person that they fear getting burned by the 70-76 seat market like they did by the 50 seat market. It might the reason for the seletive growth of this segment of the market.[/QUOTE]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I would not be suprised if the thinking about the MD90 and the fear of getting burned with lots of 76 seaters.. .. makes sense...

I'd be happy if ASA ordered a sh!tload of ATR 500's...I'd love to see more bigger jets... but we have no leverage and we pretty much get what mainline does or doesnt vote away...

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Bi-lateral flow sale job you mentioned, is simply the repackaging of something tried at the turn of the century. Interestingly enough, it too occurred right before the Delta furlough. Most regional pilots saw quickly how that could have been disasterous. From what small details I have heard, it is simply a strategy for your MEC to help the Company and thus receive someting in return to harness or further control costs on the Regional level. I see the concept as nothing more than a Trojan Horse and championed by self-serving people for their own benefit--within ALPA. Joe Merchant, are you listening?

AMEN brother.....How about this Speedtape....

Let's negotiate a one directional flow up to Delta....No bi-lateral flow...One way only....UP...

Those who want to can flow up which decreases our costs and makes us more cost effective.....Those of us who are happy here can just stay here....What say you?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Doubtful you'll get that, Joe.

Flow isnt the way to do it, anyways. A company like CPZ where the applicants are screened basically by the mainline company I would agree to it. Otherwise there is a need to interview the applicants in my opinion. There was talk of it in the NWA system for 9E to mainline, and I was strongly opposed to it while I was at 9E. It simply doesn't get the best pilots. (plus at NWA I had a good in... go figure I got hired where I didn't really have any connection)

I'd much rather get the most qualified applicants than the flow guys. The flowdown can be good in downturns, but I'd much rather get the 76 and 70 flying back to mainline than get a flow.


...and to whoever started this thread: that tinfoil hat must get pretty itchy after a little while.

 

[Speedtape]

Doubtful you'll get that, Joe.

Flow isnt the way to do it, anyways. A company like CPZ where the applicants are screened basically by the mainline company I would agree to it. Otherwise there is a need to interview the applicants in my opinion. There was talk of it in the NWA system for 9E to mainline, and I was strongly opposed to it while I was at 9E. It simply doesn't get the best pilots. (plus at NWA I had a good in... go figure I got hired where I didn't really have any connection)
The pilots at Compass were not screened by Delta HR. It will be interesting to see how that works out in the end.

As far as hiring the best pilots? There were quite a few pilots hired from my Company over the last couple of years that were by NO MEANS the best pilots. There were some that were on the short list of the pilots that were always in trouble, and it was a happy day in the CPO when they left to become somebody else's headache. Congrats on your hire!

I'd much rather get the most qualified applicants than the flow guys. The flowdown can be good in downturns, but I'd much rather get the 76 and 70 flying back to mainline than get a flow.

"get the 76 and 70 flying back to mainline?" When was it at Mainline? However, from your perspective, I can see why you would want that to happen. Most of the guys that I know that would flow, are much more qualified than some of the 1000 hour wonders that were hired.


...and to whoever started this thread: that tinfoil hat must get pretty itchy after a little while.

How do you know the tinfoil hat gets itchy? Does playing in the sandbox at F.I. with regional pilots make your motor kick? You must miss it!

 

[General Lee]

Time will tell! Are you on the bottom of some list?


This time I would be worried if I was in the bottom 5%. We at DAL are still leaner than pre 9-11. There is a heck of a lot less fat to cut.

As for the regionals. Don the flack jacket. I am not sure if you will see many jets replace the 50 seat flying. (DAL's goal is to replace three 50 seaters with one MD-90. We are looking at having 50 on them in two to three years)

I would be more worried if I were at Compass. I still don't think there will be any furloughs, but if there are they would go to Captain on the E175 (even at 20 a month). That would be very expensive for Delta, along with removing 6 seats from some 76 seaters. All of that leads to even more revenue loss.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Speedtape]

AMEN brother.....How about this Speedtape....

Let's negotiate a one directional flow up to Delta....No bi-lateral flow...One way only....UP...

Those who want to can flow up which decreases our costs and makes us more cost effective.....Those of us who are happy here can just stay here....What say you?

I say it's a complex issue that to date, except at Continental, has never worked well.

Eagle was sold a bad bag of goods with their worthless flowthrough by NALPA, which included a 15 year contract. It worked well for NALPA because it saved them money by not having to negotiate a contract on that property every 4 years. The agreement was a sentence to indentured servitude. Their flow through has never worked for Eagle pilots. It worked for NALPA, though.

The same benefit will be enjoyed by NALPA if they have 4 or 5 ALPA regionals sign on. In addition, the quid pro quo will be a standardized contract that locks in costs for years!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

How do you know the tinfoil hat gets itchy? Does playing in the sandbox at F.I. with regional pilots make your motor kick? You must miss it!

There are always a few turds that get by, as well as some of some great guys that don't get hired. One of my close friends was one of those that somehow didn't make the cut although he is one of the sharpest guys that I know- things have worked out well for him otherwise. For the most part, good comes to the really sharp ones who deserve it in this industry. Overall the process works quite well at DL. All of the ones that I knew specifically had issues did not make it through. As one of the first noobs on property, I ended up having direct input and feedback through the hiring process this last cycle. Only 1 out of 700 had to be let go, and under 10 others ended up with any issues. I'd say that's a decent process by any measuring stick- no hiring process is ever perfect, of course.

Although you say that CPZ was not screened by NWA, the pilots there were screened by people with a direct interest in NWA. Nitpicking- sure you can find flaws and I would have rather them have been screened by NWA directly. The system is better than others, though. Thank you, bankruptcy and the screwed up system that we have.


As far as the regionals sandbox, I have an interest in DAL and 9E specifically- as well as some of the stupid rumors that get spread. If you don't like my bulldozer in the sandbox, I'm sure your mom would be happy to comfort your crying. (note the sarcasm)


btw- thank you for the congrats on the hire. I stronly believe it is flying time, qualifications, personality...and then the elusive timing issue as far as getting on with a major. It's unfortunate how massive the regionals have been allowed to get which nukes the chances of proper timing for many who realy deserve to get the major shot. Here's to that getting corrected. It's not going to be a small fight by any means.

 

[Speedtape]

There are always a few turds that get by, as well as some of some great guys that don't get hired. One of my close friends was one of those that somehow didn't make the cut although he is one of the sharpest guys that I know- things have worked out well for him otherwise. For the most part, good comes to the really sharp ones who deserve it in this industry. Overall the process works quite well at DL. All of the ones that I knew specifically had issues did not make it through. As one of the first noobs on property, I ended up having direct input and feedback through the hiring process this last cycle. Only 1 out of 700 had to be let go, and under 10 others ended up with any issues. I'd say that's a decent process by any measuring stick- no hiring process is ever perfect, of course.

Thanks for acknowledgement that there is no perfect system. I had several friends that did not make it, that were good employees, good people, and great pilots. I know, however, there could have been things that were below the surface--I guess. However, I knew some that were hired, that had proper screening been done, they would still be causing headaches for employees and the CPO at my company. I guess one has to accept the aberation.

Although you say that CPZ was not screened by NWA, the pilots there were screened by people with a direct interest in NWA. Nitpicking- sure you can find flaws and I would have rather them have been screened by NWA directly. The system is better than others, though. Thank you, bankruptcy and the screwed up system that we have.
What I wrote, was that the Compass pilots were not screened by Delta HR--the HR that I suppose selected you. My other comment was, it will be interesting to see how that works out for the Compass pilots, when Delta hires again. A loophole will be found.


As far as the regionals sandbox, I have an interest in DAL and 9E specifically- as well as some of the stupid rumors that get spread. If you don't like my bulldozer in the sandbox, I'm sure your mom would be happy to comfort your crying. (note the sarcasm)

Welcome to the sandbox--bulldozer and all! My Mother would have said, "play fair and share!" I guess it's hard to take the Regional out of a Regional pilot. Many of my friends that have moved on, have commented that there are things they miss--more comraderie and smaller pond! But, none said they were reapplying.


btw- thank you for the congrats on the hire. I stronly believe it is flying time, qualifications, personality...and then the elusive timing issue as far as getting on with a major. It's unfortunate how massive the regionals have been allowed to get which nukes the chances of proper timing for many who realy deserve to get the major shot. Here's to that getting corrected. It's not going to be a small fight by any means.

Deregulation created more flying jobs--not all at the legends. Pre 1978, if you were not military, you were not getting a legend job, and there wasn't really any other flying jobs--except in ALASKA.

WADR, nothing will change in regard to scope as far as the "recapturing." The political dynamics of your pilot group has changed with the addition of the NWA pilots--real Unionists. However, within your membership, there will never be a consensus or solid support to recapture the flying because of the negotiating capital required. Protecting what you have as a pilot group will be high priority. Bad times are ahead. Also, once the one certificate operation is accomplished, it will be interesting to see if the honeymoon with MGMT goes forth. Everyone is on their best behavior right now, but I fear that will start changing next year, and especially if the economic downturn is long lasting.

Good Luck! Aside of those issues, you should enjoy a pretty good career at what looks to be one of the surviving legends.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I say it's a complex issue that to date, except at Continental, has never worked well.

Eagle was sold a bad bag of goods with their worthless flowthrough by NALPA, which included a 15 year contract. It worked well for NALPA because it saved them money by not having to negotiate a contract on that property every 4 years. The agreement was a sentence to indentured servitude. Their flow through has never worked for Eagle pilots. It worked for NALPA, though.

The same benefit will be enjoyed by NALPA if they have 4 or 5 ALPA regionals sign on. In addition, the quid pro quo will be a standardized contract that locks in costs for years!

I'm not talking about a Bi-directional flow....This would only be for ASA folks to flow up....This would allow us to lower our costs without giving up pay or workrules, while protecting folks like you and me by not having a flowback....Delta might actually be interested as they wouldn't have to worry about the high cost associated with flowbacks and it lowers the longevity cost at the regional.

My fear is an Eagle style flow...maybe we should pre-empt that.

 

[enuffalready]

count me as one of those that wants NO part in a bi-lateral or bi-sexual blow, I mean flow back.

it doesn't work, it will never work and I don't want the dalpa having any more say in what we do with our contract.

a few years ago i would have bought off on a staple, but no thanks now.

 

[PuffDriver]

I'm not talking about a Bi-directional flow....This would only be for ASA folks to flow up....This would allow us to lower our costs without giving up pay or workrules, while protecting folks like you and me by not having a flowback....Delta might actually be interested as they wouldn't have to worry about the high cost associated with flowbacks and it lowers the longevity cost at the regional.

My fear is an Eagle style flow...maybe we should pre-empt that.

:bawling::bawling::bawling:

Not gonna happen. You guys had your chance. Not even a thought in the MECs mind.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

count me as one of those that wants NO part in a bi-lateral or bi-sexual blow, I mean flow back.

it doesn't work, it will never work and I don't want the dalpa having any more say in what we do with our contract.

a few years ago i would have bought off on a staple, but no thanks now.

What if the only ones who can flow down are the same number who flowed up, and they go back down to a spot that was opened by someone leaving (not the top of the list)?

 

[enuffalready]

What if the only ones who can flow down are the same number who flowed up, and they go back down to a spot that was opened by someone leaving (not the top of the list)?

flows have never worked... they ALWAYS hurt the regional far more than they ever help. Its as very bad idea...

 

[N2264J]

flows have never worked... they ALWAYS hurt the regional far more than they ever help. Its as very bad idea...

During my previous life on the Comair MEC, the Vice Chairman of the Delta MEC once told me at the bar after I got him drunk: "Flow throughs are furlough protection."

But we already knew that.