SWAPA NC resigns

[scoreboardII]

Direct from CK the sheeple:
Our NC resigned this week after over four years of long, demanding work

Sweet. Nothing like giving up half-way through. No wonder the TA sucked.

 

[FDJ2]

Direct from CK the sheeple:
Our NC resigned this week after over four years of long, demanding work

Sweet. Nothing like giving up half-way through. No wonder the TA sucked.

They worked four years to get the TA, they forward the TA to the membership as the best they could do, the membership rejects the TA as not good enough, you state it "sucked", after that rebuke what do you expect them to do? The right thing to do is resign and allow those who think there is more meat on the bone an opportunity to go get it.

If the TA "sucked", why would you want them as your negotitors? Obviously you think the product they produced after four years was far below expectations. Why not volunteer yourself to fill their shoes?

 

[jhill]

They worked four years to get the TA, they forward the TA to the membership as the best they could do, the membership rejects the TA as not good enough, you state it "sucked", after that rebuke what do you expect them to do? The right thing to do is resign and allow those who think there is more meat on the bone an opportunity to go get it.

If the TA "sucked", why would you want them as your negotitors? Obviously you think the product they produced after four years was far below expectations. Why not volunteer yourself to fill their shoes?

Well said Sir!

 

[mynameisjim]

Wow, that's some professionalism right there. They came up with a TA that failed by a few percent and they give up? Wimps.

 

[737lj]

The views expressed...

Direct from CK the sheeple:
Our NC resigned this week after over four years of long, demanding work

Sweet. Nothing like giving up half-way through. No wonder the TA sucked.

The views expressed by this no talent - a$$ clown do not reflect the rest of the group.

Scoreboard, why don't you volunteer to assist the new NC. Then you'll actually get closer to seeing the big picture.

Another wasted seniority number...

LJ

 

[RDG]

The views expressed by this no talent - a$$ clown do not reflect the rest of the group.

Scoreboard, why don't you volunteer to assist the new NC. Then you'll actually get closer to seeing the big picture.

Another wasted seniority number...

LJ

The views expressed by this mud-slinging moron do not reflect the rest of the group.

Usually when the going gets tough, we toughen up and get 'er done. We don't just quit in a huff.

Another wasted seniority number...

 

[DH2WN]

YEAH!!!! NC was completely out of touch. Best they could do well then now we can get people who can do a good job.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

Well that should make all the barn burners happy. After all, they were calling for the resignation of the BoD AND the NC.
I think FDJ is spot on. I believe the old saying "damned if you do, damned if you don't" applies here.
So to everyone that knocked CK for his "great challenges ahead" comment, I guess it now begins.


SLC

 

[afhercdriver]

Direct from CK the sheeple:
Our NC resigned this week after over four years of long, demanding work

Sweet. Nothing like giving up half-way through. No wonder the TA sucked.

Put me in Coach!!

 

[AlbieF15]

Outsider's perspective, but if the product didn't meet the muster of over half the pilot force maybe a fresh perspective is a good thing. Doesn't mean the guys leaving are "wimps", or bad guys in any way, shape, or form. However, they obviously don't have the pulse of the masses so moving on might be best for everyone.

Having been a rock thrower at another carrier for a while, I can tell you union work is the classic committee work. Every individual input matters, but no one individual can ever do anything alone. Its slow, slogging, frustrating work at times. Personally, I think a certain amount of turnover is good for both the membership and the union. The union gets fresh blood and perspective periodically, and MORE pilots are involved which increases their exposure to the ins and outs of union work. If you sit back all the time and let "those union guys..." do all your work, odds are they'll end up out of touch and the line pilots won't like the product. For the union to be "us", we have to step up here and there and offer our services. Otherwise, the company is "them", the union is "them", and nobody ever is satisfied.

 

[PCL_128]

They worked four years to get the TA, they forward the TA to the membership as the best they could do, the membership rejects the TA as not good enough, you state it "sucked", after that rebuke what do you expect them to do? The right thing to do is resign and allow those who think there is more meat on the bone an opportunity to go get it.

If the TA "sucked", why would you want them as your negotitors? Obviously you think the product they produced after four years was far below expectations. Why not volunteer yourself to fill their shoes?

I'm not sure that I agree. Had the TA failed by a large margin I could see your point, but the TA failed by less than 1%. That's an indication to me that the current NC should go back to the table and fix the few items that the pilots are unhappy with. With such a close vote, I'd bet that a few small adjustments to scope, lance CAs, and ELITT would yield a landslide ratification vote. But with the resignation of the NC, they'll now be set back by 6+ months, most likely.

 

[freightdogfred]

I don't work for LUV, ain't got a dog in this fight (sorry mike vick) but I'd say the company crafted a damn fine document there, only failing by 1%. A little tweaking here and there, send back out to the boyz with a little more spin on it, and it'll pass by 1%, which is all they need, but more importantly all they really want.

A grass roots truly national union is the only thing that's gonna save this profession, IMHO.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Why not go back and make more than 51% happy your objective, instead of just turning the ********************s into a hard one, make it a piece of cake that we can all eat.

 

[njcapt]

Direct from CK the sheeple:
Our NC resigned this week after over four years of long, demanding work

Sweet. Nothing like giving up half-way through. No wonder the TA sucked.

CK bugs the crap out of me, but your bile directed at the NC is out of line since it's customary for a NC to resign after a failed TA. CK meddled with the Committee and undermined their work and the process, how are they supposed to go back to the table and extract significant gains from the company? As miserable and time consuming as it is, it's best to enpanel a new Committee and leave all the old baggage behind.

 

[GuppyWN]

The NC did not seek what the membership wanted! Plain and simple. Ask your reps what the polling showed about an entirely new open time system. Ask your reps what the membership said about raises. Ask you reps what the membership said about ELITT.

The membership didn't ask for the changes we received.

If the NC isn't going to abide by the polling data then they needed to quit.

Either that or when TA2 comes out just as bad Carl can say "see I told you so."

Gup

 

[XR650R]

Personally, I thought the TA as written was a damn fine document. Now we all get to fall on the sword because to keep the prima donna LC's happy they're going to ask for concessions in another part of the contract (read pay and/or retro) and that ain't gonna happen. So now we're back to square one. Don't be surprised if CM phones the FAA and the FAA shuts down the LC program out of hand. Woudn't that be funny... uh I mean ironic.

 

[Ty Webb]

If you sit back all the time and let "those union guys..." do all your work, odds are they'll end up out of touch and the line pilots won't like the product. For the union to be "us", we have to step up here and there and offer our services. Otherwise, the company is "them", the union is "them", and nobody ever is satisfied.

Man . . . . Ain't that the truth. Well-put Albie. That oughta be a sticky.

Ty

 

[:-)]

all of you peeps who trash a nc have no clue. Your nc is not a "dictate conditions" committee. Your nc negotiates. The TA's they sign are the result of negotiations. I assure you that the nc did not just go in, sit down, and ask management what management wanted.
Jeez pilots are naive.

 

[firstthird]

instead they negotiated stuff that we didn't ask for (open time system) while ignoring long standing and onerous gripes (reserve rules, vacation poaching, no right of return), meanwhile they chose this moment to enhance the seniority of the top 25% while we are in zero growth mode. anyone else wonder why it was 60/40 yes from captains and 60/40 no from FOs. if for not other reason, this disparity shows the NC came out with an inequitable product.

I appreciate their hard work but somewhere along the last 2.5 years the process got skewed and the result was a hot mess. some good that was overwhelmed by more bad. if not for the union led fear campaign (vote yes OR ELSE) it would have failed by a much larger margin.

 

[airlinepilot]

I just read that the union is going to "survey our entire pilot group". My question all along was why didn't we do that to start with. How in the world did the union ever expect the NC to operate without a complete survey of all the pilots. No wonder they were out of touch.

 

[StopNTSing]

I just read that the union is going to "survey our entire pilot group". My question all along was why didn't we do that to start with. How in the world did the union ever expect the NC to operate without a complete survey of all the pilots. No wonder they were out of touch.

The union did quite a bit of polling over the last couple of years, but they either chose to disregard the results or structured the questions (aka push-polling) to get the results they hoped for. How else to explain the disconnect?

 

[NuGuy]

If the TA "sucked", why would you want them as your negotitors? Obviously you think the product they produced after four years was far below expectations. Why not volunteer yourself to fill their shoes?

Heyas FDJ,

While I agree with you in principal, you, of all people, should know that you just don't "volunteer" for the negotiating committee at ANY airline.

At many airlines, the political structure of the union is entrenched. Sure, you can volunteer, and wind up doing the unpleasant work, like manning the furlough question hotline. Even for the technical committees (which always have more volunteers than spots), you need to know someone ON the committee that wants your help.

But for the "big" committees, namely R&I, contract admin, and most especially, the NC, you have to be "politically reliable". You're not going to get anywhere near that committee unless you are WELL known by the union leadership, done years of commitee work already, AND you fit the demographic that they're looking for (junior/senior/captain/fo).

What's happening at SWA is the same play, seen over and over again at the other legacys. For show, NC will resign, a new one will be handpicked by the SAME union leadership, while keeping the old NC members around for "consultation". They'll send out another survey to "manage expectations". Then they'll tweak the TA a bit, only 1 or 2 percent better than the last, and it will pass.

Welcome to the club, guys...

Nu

 

[airlinepilot]

Polling flawed

The union did quite a bit of polling over the last couple of years, but they either chose to disregard the results or structured the questions (aka push-polling) to get the results they hoped for. How else to explain the disconnect?

They only contacted people via phone. Alot of people don't give the company and union their home phone. I have only given them my cel and I turn it off when I am home. I have flown with alot of people that say they, like me, were never polled. Either way it's clear they didn't do a very good job of knowing what the group wanted. I spoke with both Dom Reps after the TA came out....and it was sorta clear to me they didn't really know what should have been the real issues.

 

[firstthird]

they did one big poll but it was something like 3 years ago. most of the phone polling seemed to ask leading and/or really stupid questions. I think the web poll is a way to get a start on what we want in the next TA, to be refined, no doubt, by more crappy wilson phone polling.

 

[PCL_128]

Wilson Polling is the only scientific polling. Anything done over the web isn't scientific because it requires pilots to go out of their way to get on the web, find the poll themselves, and then fill it all out. Scientific polling requires random calling of demographic sampling. You can't get that with a web poll.

 

[firstthird]

I get it. I've read the sales pieces from the BOD reps too. but, the BOD told us the TA would pass comfortably, based on their polling. not too scientific, was it?

GIGO

wilson polling has lots of garbage in (crappy questions) which leads to GO.

although, it obviously isn't all on the polling. the NC seemed to go off on some tangents that weren't really addressed in polling or goals (completely new open time system, enhancing seniority during no growth, etc).

 

[PCL_128]

I get it. I've read the sales pieces from the BOD reps too. but, the BOD told us the TA would pass comfortably, based on their polling. not too scientific, was it?

GIGO

wilson polling has lots of garbage in (crappy questions) which leads to GO.

although, it obviously isn't all on the polling. the NC seemed to go off on some tangents that weren't really addressed in polling or goals (completely new open time system, enhancing seniority during no growth, etc).

Believe me, I know what you mean. The NPA (AirTran independent union before ALPA) was doing Wilson Polling also before the last TA and basically ignored all of it. The polling data is scientific and accurate, but that doesn't mean that they're going to follow it or tell you the truth about what it said.

The questions are actually very good. Phil Comstock runs the Wilson Center, and he's been doing pilot polling for a great many years. He really does have it down to a science. But like I said, the reps and NC have to actually listen to it for it to be useful.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Most polling is neither scientific, nor accurate. Polling is simply done to "manage expectations". Most of the questions are leading, and are constructed with a predetermined result. To wit:

Do you think outsourcing of flying is:

1) Fantastic
2) Great
3) Good
4) Not so bad

Any union leader telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Polling is done for one reason, and one reason only...crowd control.

Nu

 

[Bringupthebird]

The only poll that matters is the strike vote. Did SWAPA take one?

 

[PCL_128]

Heyas,

Most polling is neither scientific, nor accurate. Polling is simply done to "manage expectations". Most of the questions are leading, and are constructed with a predetermined result. To wit:

Do you think outsourcing of flying is:

1) Fantastic
2) Great
3) Good
4) Not so bad

Any union leader telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Polling is done for one reason, and one reason only...crowd control.

Nu

Absolutely ridiculous. Where do you people come up with this crap?