SWAPA NC resigns

[StopNTSing]

I just read that the union is going to "survey our entire pilot group". My question all along was why didn't we do that to start with. How in the world did the union ever expect the NC to operate without a complete survey of all the pilots. No wonder they were out of touch.

The union did quite a bit of polling over the last couple of years, but they either chose to disregard the results or structured the questions (aka push-polling) to get the results they hoped for. How else to explain the disconnect?

 

[NuGuy]

If the TA "sucked", why would you want them as your negotitors? Obviously you think the product they produced after four years was far below expectations. Why not volunteer yourself to fill their shoes?

Heyas FDJ,

While I agree with you in principal, you, of all people, should know that you just don't "volunteer" for the negotiating committee at ANY airline.

At many airlines, the political structure of the union is entrenched. Sure, you can volunteer, and wind up doing the unpleasant work, like manning the furlough question hotline. Even for the technical committees (which always have more volunteers than spots), you need to know someone ON the committee that wants your help.

But for the "big" committees, namely R&I, contract admin, and most especially, the NC, you have to be "politically reliable". You're not going to get anywhere near that committee unless you are WELL known by the union leadership, done years of commitee work already, AND you fit the demographic that they're looking for (junior/senior/captain/fo).

What's happening at SWA is the same play, seen over and over again at the other legacys. For show, NC will resign, a new one will be handpicked by the SAME union leadership, while keeping the old NC members around for "consultation". They'll send out another survey to "manage expectations". Then they'll tweak the TA a bit, only 1 or 2 percent better than the last, and it will pass.

Welcome to the club, guys...

Nu

 

[airlinepilot]

Polling flawed

The union did quite a bit of polling over the last couple of years, but they either chose to disregard the results or structured the questions (aka push-polling) to get the results they hoped for. How else to explain the disconnect?

They only contacted people via phone. Alot of people don't give the company and union their home phone. I have only given them my cel and I turn it off when I am home. I have flown with alot of people that say they, like me, were never polled. Either way it's clear they didn't do a very good job of knowing what the group wanted. I spoke with both Dom Reps after the TA came out....and it was sorta clear to me they didn't really know what should have been the real issues.

 

[firstthird]

they did one big poll but it was something like 3 years ago. most of the phone polling seemed to ask leading and/or really stupid questions. I think the web poll is a way to get a start on what we want in the next TA, to be refined, no doubt, by more crappy wilson phone polling.

 

[PCL_128]

Wilson Polling is the only scientific polling. Anything done over the web isn't scientific because it requires pilots to go out of their way to get on the web, find the poll themselves, and then fill it all out. Scientific polling requires random calling of demographic sampling. You can't get that with a web poll.

 

[firstthird]

I get it. I've read the sales pieces from the BOD reps too. but, the BOD told us the TA would pass comfortably, based on their polling. not too scientific, was it?

GIGO

wilson polling has lots of garbage in (crappy questions) which leads to GO.

although, it obviously isn't all on the polling. the NC seemed to go off on some tangents that weren't really addressed in polling or goals (completely new open time system, enhancing seniority during no growth, etc).

 

[PCL_128]

I get it. I've read the sales pieces from the BOD reps too. but, the BOD told us the TA would pass comfortably, based on their polling. not too scientific, was it?

GIGO

wilson polling has lots of garbage in (crappy questions) which leads to GO.

although, it obviously isn't all on the polling. the NC seemed to go off on some tangents that weren't really addressed in polling or goals (completely new open time system, enhancing seniority during no growth, etc).

Believe me, I know what you mean. The NPA (AirTran independent union before ALPA) was doing Wilson Polling also before the last TA and basically ignored all of it. The polling data is scientific and accurate, but that doesn't mean that they're going to follow it or tell you the truth about what it said.

The questions are actually very good. Phil Comstock runs the Wilson Center, and he's been doing pilot polling for a great many years. He really does have it down to a science. But like I said, the reps and NC have to actually listen to it for it to be useful.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Most polling is neither scientific, nor accurate. Polling is simply done to "manage expectations". Most of the questions are leading, and are constructed with a predetermined result. To wit:

Do you think outsourcing of flying is:

1) Fantastic
2) Great
3) Good
4) Not so bad

Any union leader telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Polling is done for one reason, and one reason only...crowd control.

Nu

 

[Bringupthebird]

The only poll that matters is the strike vote. Did SWAPA take one?

 

[PCL_128]

Heyas,

Most polling is neither scientific, nor accurate. Polling is simply done to "manage expectations". Most of the questions are leading, and are constructed with a predetermined result. To wit:

Do you think outsourcing of flying is:

1) Fantastic
2) Great
3) Good
4) Not so bad

Any union leader telling you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Polling is done for one reason, and one reason only...crowd control.

Nu

Absolutely ridiculous. Where do you people come up with this crap?

 

[ualdriver]

Just out of curiosity, how many people show up at a typical SWA union meeting to tell their leadership what THEY want? In PHX, for example, how many pilots do you have, and how many pilots show up for a typical union meeting?

We have about 1000+ pilots in Chicago and maybe 30 guys show up on a good day. Then our pilots wonder why their union is "out of touch." (their opinion, anyway)

 

[N1atEcon]

They have a company that does phone surveys and they will use on-line questionairs. I flew with a guy today who put it in the best perspective yet.
"what we have now is better than what they wanted to give us in the future." So he and I had both voted for the "now".

 

[huronip]

.........................................

 

[Captain X]

Outsider's perspective, but if the product didn't meet the muster of over half the pilot force maybe a fresh perspective is a good thing. Doesn't mean the guys leaving are "wimps", or bad guys in any way, shape, or form. However, they obviously don't have the pulse of the masses so moving on might be best for everyone.

Having been a rock thrower at another carrier for a while, I can tell you union work is the classic committee work. Every individual input matters, but no one individual can ever do anything alone. Its slow, slogging, frustrating work at times. Personally, I think a certain amount of turnover is good for both the membership and the union. The union gets fresh blood and perspective periodically, and MORE pilots are involved which increases their exposure to the ins and outs of union work. If you sit back all the time and let "those union guys..." do all your work, odds are they'll end up out of touch and the line pilots won't like the product. For the union to be "us", we have to step up here and there and offer our services. Otherwise, the company is "them", the union is "them", and nobody ever is satisfied.

Great post Albie!

 

[Captain X]

A grass roots truly national union is the only thing that's gonna save this profession, IMHO.

Point of personal privilege: That is essentially how ALPA started out. As a grass roots effort that quickly grew into a national deal.

 

[DH2WN]

The only poll that matters is the strike vote. Did SWAPA take one?

It's coming if our "union" continues to lead us down a path that only senior dill holes want to follow.

 

[DH2WN]

Just out of curiosity, how many people show up at a typical SWA union meeting to tell their leadership what THEY want? In PHX, for example, how many pilots do you have, and how many pilots show up for a typical union meeting?

We have about 1000+ pilots in Chicago and maybe 30 guys show up on a good day. Then our pilots wonder why their union is "out of touch." (their opinion, anyway)

Well, maybe if the "union" had meetings outside of Dallas and on a weekend or two. God forbid the "union" members work on a weekend outside of cowpokey texass

 

[Cobra17]

A grass roots truly national union is the only thing that's gonna save this profession, IMHO.

How exactly would that have helped? It hasn't helped the auto industry. How about USAir and AWA...they were both part of the same national union. No thanks.