Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

SWA TA Vote

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

shootr

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
486
Vote opens today, 1200 central. If you haven't read the TA, please do so before you vote. If you have read it, go ahead and vote!! No, may be a good choice...we can do better. Let's fix the work rules back and get something more with the codeshare protection.

It's OK to vote No!
shootr

Oh, can some of you senior guys take your $130,000 payout and run? That'd be great!
 
Last edited:
From what I've seen, a good number of these "no" chest thumpers haven't taken the time to understand the details of the TA and are just going on rumors and false interpretations. I'm still undecided, but I'm not impressed with the people trying to get me to vote no.
 
If you are still undecided...

Outsourcing
is subcontracting a process, such as product design or manufacturing, to a third-party company.[1] The decision to outsource is often made in the interest of lowering cost or making better use of time and energy costs, redirecting or conserving energy directed at the competencies of a particular business, or to make more efficient use of land, labor, capital, (information) technology and resources[citation needed]. Outsourcing became part of the business lexicon during the 1980s. It is essentially a division of labour.
 
Go!

Are you undecided because you aren't aware of what's in the TA? Are you aware but just don't understand it enough to make a choice? Do you understand the scheduling changes and how they will affect you, your QOL, and your monthly income? Pay rate is not a final determining factor in your take-home pay.

I, along with many "No" voter have a very detailed understanding of this TA. It's the reason I'm a "No" voter. I will not personally try to help your understanding of these complicated matters but here are some places to start your research...

voteyourfuture.org
www.fixthecontract.com
http://www.swapa.org/TA/tabid/2249/Default.aspx

You have some reading to do! You only have a month so you better get to it!

Fraternally,
shootr
 
From what I've seen, a good number of these "no" chest thumpers haven't taken the time to understand the details of the TA and are just going on rumors and false interpretations. I'm still undecided, but I'm not impressed with the people trying to get me to vote no
.

Funny - most people voting YES for it, haven't read any of it. Some drink the koolaid and some don't.
 
Most yes voters will never read it....

Most refuse to recognize that the reason things are so good here is because of successful negotiations. Not because Herb was generous! What you are enjoying today was negotiated in the past. If you are an uneducated voter, you are trusting in people who want to errode your benefits.

If this passes, it will take you (F/O) 3 years to get back to where you are today.
09 - shrinkage
10 - stagnation
11 - Lances finally might get their 4th stripe back

Vote how you choose, make sure you know what you are voting for.
 
I think that many will be surprised with the results. I have already voted.

No, thanks.
 
I feel like we've been completely steamrolled by this TA. The co. got probably 98% of everything they wanted.

The biggest thing that bothers me is this....

The way the company decided to treat the Lance Captains. How does that fit into the legacy of SWA taking care of their employees? I see it as a massive slap in the face and a completely different direction that we've never been in.

It's one thing if you want to get rid of the program, and I can understand that, but to just cut their legs off is more like something UAL would do...

Just reading the TA sells itself and I'm glad there has been such a huge outpouring of articles submited to RP that say as much.

RF
 
Flyinguy....

Most yes voters will never read it....

Most refuse to recognize that the reason things are so good here is because of successful negotiations. Not because Herb was generous! What you are enjoying today was negotiated in the past. If you are an uneducated voter, you are trusting in people who want to errode your benefits.

Flyin,
Difference is this time we set the bar for 737 operations. SWA has always negotiated from a drastically underpaid position as compared to the other major operators, and stock options and profit sharing were more important.
Now, post BK majors are under our NG payrates, so we are the ones that have to eek out raises.
 
In this economy, I just don't feel that a TFP raise is appropriate. I would feel terrible accepting a raise right now.

Therefore, I have voted No.

Now, on the other hand, $130,000 is good money. I suggest all the 12 year plus guys cash in. Take it and run. Just vote No before you go.
 
Last edited:
Just voted no..........

I was hoping I could vote yes but I cant go for all of the codeshare.....plus no RJs over 86 seats???????? 95% of RJs have 86 seats or less!

Sad day.....but it will lead to better.
 
No for me as well. Luv this company but we are giving way too much in this contract. Its OK to vote no!
 
The more things change....The more they remain the same.

This thread could have been written 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. ( Well, if they had the Internet back then. )

The topics, dilemmas, questions, answers, and unfortunately the OUTCOMES, never seem to change to any great degree.

Good Luck with your foregone conclusion....52-56% will decide ( knowledgeable or not ) that this is "The best that we can do. "

If only we could achieve Free Agent status....yeah, I know...I'm smokon' de Cheba Mon.


YKMKWE
 
Last edited:
MDW rep just changed his position to that of VOTE NO for the TA.

Gobyebye. PM me if you want non-emotional information about how bad this TA is for your future.

Or feel free to visit voteyourfuture.org and look at the "sections explained" tab on the left column.

Gup
 
One of the MDW Reps just changed his opinion to a NO VOTE. Check your email.

The more time we all have to review this thing, the more we realize it is not a good thing.
 
Just voted no this afternoon. Felt so good I might just do it again for kicks! :nuts:
 
I have read the TA very thoroughly. I'm undecided at this point because of my thoughts on the unknowns, whether it passes or doesn't. Just weighing the possible outcomes either way. What I said on page one was that many, not all, but many of the die hard no, no, no guys say things that just aren't true. Capn Butthead just proved my point on page one. A lot of the the people voting no have valid, thought out reasons and I respect their opinions because they are based on straight facts. I was just trying to say that in trying to talk to people and educate myself, I have run into a lot of people who are voting no because of reasons that just aren't true, and what kills me is that they are red faced angry over these things. For every yes voter who is voting uneducated, there are an equal amount of improperly educated no voters.
 
I feel like we've been completely steamrolled by this TA. The co. got probably 98% of everything they wanted.

RF

Huh? According to the exec summary and the SWAPA/SWA Gains handout, SWAPA made considerable gains!

The company has been fighting the Wright amendment for 30 years. Why would we be so quick to throw in the towel on codeshare?

Wright is wrong, codeshare is wrong!

Oh yeah, can we have our UFlyMike's back...pretty please?
 
Fellow Pilots of the World’s Best Airline.

The endorsements at the end of this letter represent a cross section of former SWAPA board and committee members, chairmen from previous Negotiation, Scheduling and Safety Committees and fellow line pilots across the seniority spectrum. We have in common the belief that this TA contains significant risks to our business model and as such it undermines the security and future earnings potential of every SWA pilot as well as the future viability of Southwest Airlines. It is a giant step backward for both SWA and SWAPA. The philosophy contained in this TA language potentially changes forever the mutually beneficial working relationship that allows us to prosper at SWA. It is the first contractual change in more than a decade that doesn’t combine increased efficiency with increased quality of life, pay and schedule improvements. It isn’t win-win.

RISKS TO OUR BUSINESS MODEL - This proposal will reduce SWA’s vaunted efficiency, increase our schedule execution costs and result in a higher Flight Ops Cost per Available Seat Mile, (FOCASM) with no long term benefit to the pilot group. The minimal code-share protection allows a further dilution of the SWA brand and the outsourcing of SWA flying. Further, the proposal reduces our quality of life, our schedule flexibility, our protection on days off and our ability to earn additional income from discretionary flying. Overall, this TA decreases the pilot group’s continuing ability to make real contributions to the viability of SWA’s business model. It will make SWA’s industry leading scheduling and manning models less efficient. This philosophy will very easily result in greater long-term furlough risk for SWA pilots.

CODESHARE LANGUAGE - The current offer allows the outsourcing of viable 737 flying into all of Canada and Mexico after a short period of minimal growth. This can be instantaneous with the purchase of another carrier. This tenet threatens SWA’s future viability as a brand and reduces your potential income, your quality of life, and your job stability. During these economic times, outsourcing of SWA flying is unacceptable.

LANCE CAPTAIN - The proposed 52% reduction in Lance Captains is a guaranteed cost increase for SWA. Additionally, it will affect EVERY PILOT’S schedule flexibility and will result in a commensurate decrease in QOL ACROSS THE BOARD. Some Lance Captains will suffer an immediate $40,000 per year decrease in pay. The mid and lower seniority FOs will have less viable open time. Captains will experience decreased giveaway ability. Captain reserve pilots will increase, the costs per seat mile will go up and we will be overall much less efficient and effective for the company as a low cost pilot group.

ELITT - Under this proposal, ELITT weekend restrictions are increased by 100% and the overall ability to trade down is reduced significantly. This change will again decrease in our QOL and cost SWA more money to fly the same schedule. There is not a problem covering weekend flying now because ELITT is not the problem. ELITT doesn’t cause uncovered flying, improper, erratic, manning and excessive pairing length does. ELITT can contribute to an existing MANNING and PAIRING problem. The flexibility of ELITT has proven to be a benefit for SWA. During the ELITT testing phase, when properly manned, ELITT has proven time and again to decrease overlap issues and increase weekend trip coverage. The TA offers no solutions to address the real problem of erratic manning, and excessive pairing length.

PAY - In this environment, we truly appreciate the thought. In reality, the proposal represents a significant real dollar pay CUT over the life of this TA, on the order of 5-15% depending on the rate of inflation. SWAPA estimates that there is only a very slight chance of significant raises next year and in 2011 with only a 50% chance of a 1% raise in the last 2 years. The proposed raises are out of balance with the rest of the SWA employee group’s percentage pay raises. It will certainly NOT replace the 8-12% DECREASE in pay already suffered in schedule reductions and again planned for the next year.

OPENTIME - The total re-write of the Open Time distribution system is unwarranted. It is untested, certainly unproven and not ready for implementation. Again, significant potential exists for costs and manning increases with no benefit to the pilot group overall.

SCHEDULING - The TA language allows for a worse than current schedule. It effectively solves none of our long-term schedule issues of excessive pairing length, overlap resolutions, or excessive manning shifts in monthly vacancy bids. Additionally, it contains no increased rig protection against excessively longer duty day growth or increase aircraft changes. There are no pairing length reductions to help stabilize our manning. Line writing changes increased the top TFP limit but left the bottom limit, increasing the 50% pay differential between junior and senior lines.

RESERVE SYSTEM – After ten years of complaints, the TA still doesn’t fix any of the long term issues regarding pay, AM / PM protection, or a lack of seniority in awarding trips. Reserve pay is still a B scale at 17% below the line average. It still allows an effective RAP change without pilot consent. It still allows a pilot to fly 89.9 TFP and sit the last four-day reserve block for FREE (0.1 TFP.) It adds the ability to be JA’d on Reserve.

DEBUNKING OF PROPOGATED MYTHS -
MYTH 1. - Rejecting the TA will have a bearing on the company's furlough decision. Not true,. In fact, accepting this offer will increase FOCASM, resulting in a long-term risk of decreasing profits, decreasing pay, and increasing the risk of outsourcing of our jobs and furlough.
MYTH 2. -We will have to start from scratch. False. Although the overall philosophy is flawed, there are several areas that are acceptable. The OVERALL RISK to SWA is unacceptable.
MYTH 3. - We will lose the Code share protection we have already negotiated. False. Side letter 32 will come back into effect if this TA is voted down and the December 2009 growth restriction is not met

PLEASE READ THE TA
And make up your own mind. The executive summaries and gain / gain documentation put out by SWAPA are an incomplete and misleading representation of what this TA will bring to our pilot group. There is no CON argument to accompany the extensive SWAPA presentations, However, some members of the BOD have already rejected the Executive Summary. Please VOTE NO or DON’T VOTE until you have read and understand the actual language of this tentative agreement. You should “Limit Check” the language provisions to determine if you can live with the range of each item. If you don’t understand the language, then that is a red flag. Ask yourself why it is written the way it is.

IN CONCLUSION - The pilots of SWA are significantly invested in the future viability of SWA. The contributors to this document fully comprehend and appreciate that investment. Our careers are worth several millions of dollars each and several billion dollars overall. This money is invested in the future viability of SWA. We do not take this position lightly. Most of the pilots whose names appear below have already devoted years of time and effort to preserving the working relationship between SWA and SWAPA. Each of us believes that this TA contains significant risks to the future viability of SWA, and by extension, to the job security and future earning potential of every SWA pilot. Please say NO to a contract that will change our business model and our airline for the worse. Our families, our SWA family, our leadership and our stockholders deserve much better.
 
Read the whole TA, cover to cover and voted no. Sorry, but that dog just don't hunt.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom