SWA TA Vote

[regionaltard]

Really? So how does banning UFlyMikes and buying thousands of crappy Telex headsets relate to costs and revenue? Why are they authorized at other carriers but not at SWA?

FWIW the feds seem to be prosecuting their TSO jihad everywhere. They're quite comfortable with the idea of fatigued crews flying around with a half a brain between them but this non-issue apparently has their full attention.

 

[DH2WN]

What happens when the union votes the TA down and the next day GK announces codesharing to BOS, LGA, MSP, etc... with Frontier, AirTran, etc..?

The pilot group will cry about headsets some more and GK will continue to laugh as he hands other carriers our flying and then proceeds to furlough 500 pilots out of spite because we voted it down.

Don't think he wouldn't do it.. I feel for the bottom of the rung guys who will be on the street begging for food because you didn't want to work a couple weekends.

 

[Herkdrv]

What happens when the union votes the TA down and the next day GK announces codesharing to BOS, LGA, MSP, etc... with Frontier, AirTran, etc..?

The pilot group will cry about headsets some more and GK will continue to laugh as he hands other carriers our flying and then proceeds to furlough 500 pilots out of spite because we voted it down.

Don't think he wouldn't do it.. I feel for the bottom of the rung guys who will be on the street begging for food because you didn't want to work a couple weekends.

You my friend have fallen for the oldest trick in the management playbook. Instill fear in order to get concessions. I will gladly take a furlough if it means preserving my QOL. Its OK to vote no!

 

[firstthird]

yes. It is funny how the YES voters sell the FEAR while the NO voters say that what we have isn't that bad, and, oh by the way, read the TA. It seems that every Yes voter I run into hasn't gotten around to reading the TA, instead they seem to be relying on the exec summary and the gains/gains pieces and the BOD recommendations. oh well. people get the gov't they deserve in a democracy and it looks like some SWA pilots think we deserve to have a contract that was written by and for schedulers rather than pilots.

 

[Cobra17]

I'm quite curious as to what the openers were on each side. I haven't seen negotiations this lopsided since Hatton/Pacquaio.

 

[Whataburger]

I loved the "Gains/Gains" booklet.

ie. This contract was written in English.

SWAPA - Gain.
SWA - No Gain.

ie. SWA will not pertend they are the Cuidad Juarez drug militia.

SWAPA - Gain
SWA - No Gain.

ie. SWA will abide by rules already stated in the United States Constitution, Railway Labor Act, and State and Federal Laws.

SWAPA - Gain
SWA - No gain.

It goes on and on.

 

[Mach 80]

>>>I will gladly take a furlough if it means preserving my QOL<<<

Umm, sorry, you can't have both.

I have been in the industry a long time. I have listened to pilots act real macho with such talk. Next thing you know their are in a deep depression as they endure their furlough and are looking for work to support their families.

I've heard similar when a guy says "If this airline goes under, that's it, I'm going to look for a non-flying job. I don't care if it does crater. I've had it". Two year later, AFTER his airline DOES go down, I run into him at the airport starting all over at the bottom of some new seniority list. "What happened to not going back to a non-flying job?"?" I asked. He says "I can't compete for other white collar work. All I have ever done is fly airplanes and I wasn't competitive for other work. I took a somewhat low paying job at xyz but man - 5 or 6 days a week with some guy breathing down your neck all the time. I couldn't take it anymore, so here I am. I wish my old place had stayed in business."

 

[Splert]

So what you are saying is you would work for 1/4 of what you make now with no work rules, benefits or retirement just to keep flying. No wonder this profession is no longer in the toliet. This profession is in the sewer and racing down hill to the treatment plant because pilots can only be pilots and $37,000 year is all a pilot can earn outside of aviation so he might as well settle for $35,000 a year.

 

[SELCAL checks]

Umm, sorry, you can't have both.

Actually, what I believe he's saying is he'd rather not vote for a concessionary TA that sells out our Brothers both at the company and in the industry. Assuming that a NO vote would trigger furloughs (which is a flawed argument anyway), he would prefer to take a stance that preserves YOUR present QOL and gives him something to look forward to when he's recalled.

I'm with him.

You keep mentioning that you've been around for a while. That means that you've benefited from the lance captain program by upgrading sooner and/or increased scheduling flexibility. Why rob the next generation of SWA pilots of the same opportunity?

Many of the NO voters also have been around for a while, Mach80, and they watched contractual deficiencies regarding Scope/Codeshare become exploited and erode their job security at previous employers.

We don't want to see these things happen here, that's why we came here. Good pay, schedule flexibility, no codeshare/scope eroding our job security. There's not one thing in this TA that I see enhancing my career at SWA. Well, except for the 401k increase.

 

[StopNTSing]

>>>I will gladly take a furlough if it means preserving my QOL<<<

Umm, sorry, you can't have both.

I have been in the industry a long time. I have listened to pilots act real macho with such talk. Next thing you know their are in a deep depression as they endure their furlough and are looking for work to support their families.

I've heard similar when a guy says "If this airline goes under, that's it, I'm going to look for a non-flying job. I don't care if it does crater. I've had it". Two year later, AFTER his airline DOES go down, I run into him at the airport starting all over at the bottom of some new seniority list. "What happened to not going back to a non-flying job?"?" I asked. He says "I can't compete for other white collar work. All I have ever done is fly airplanes and I wasn't competitive for other work. I took a somewhat low paying job at xyz but man - 5 or 6 days a week with some guy breathing down your neck all the time. I couldn't take it anymore, so here I am. I wish my old place had stayed in business."

Get over yourself, friend. If you really think our situation is anywhere close to being that dire, you are truly delusional. The health of SWA (or ANY airline) has never and will never be in the hands of the pilots; we're labor, not management, remember? I won't deny that we have a few 'burn the house down' types here, but they are a very vocal, very small minority. What I think you are seeing now is a pilot group that is finally growing a pair and no longer willing to swing at the first pitch. I would expect that is a troubling thing for a senior koolie like yourself to observe.

 

[OurMoney1]

It seems there exists a tremendous amount of entitlement in the ranks of the junior SWA pilot group.

The growth that SWA has enjoyed can not be sustained and it seems this contract highlights this fact.

Wanting more in this economy when you already have the best seems very foolish.

In the 90's people went to work for SWA for the company. Today it seems many have gone for the promise that the $$$ and growth will never end.

When the seniors retire over the next 12 years Gary is going to have a very rebellious group on his hands. It appears we are already seeing signs of things to come.

 

[StopNTSing]

It seems there exists a tremendous amount of entitlement in the ranks of the junior SWA pilot group.

The growth that SWA has enjoyed can not be sustained and it seems this contract highlights this fact.

Wanting more in this economy when you already have the best seems very foolish.

In the 90's people went to work for SWA for the company. Today it seems many have gone for the promise that the $$$ and growth will never end.

When the seniors retire over the next 12 years Gary is going to have a very rebellious group on his hands. It appears we are already seeing signs of things to come.

Yet another example of the "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't" FI peanut gallery. It's mindsets like yours that continue to erode this profession by doing managements job for them. Remember, you only ever get what you negotiate. From your post it's apparent you know almost as much about SWA as I do about UPS...which is that they fly brown and white airplanes full of boxes. Beyond that I don't have a clue....and as a result I don't comment much around here on the goings-on at Brown. May I suggest you do the same?

 

[firstthird]

It seems there exists a tremendous amount of entitlement in the ranks of the junior SWA pilot group.

That might have something to do with the fact that this contract is weighted towards 4 digit guys, AGAIN.

Not all 4 digit guys wrote this TA but it was written for all of them.

No penalty on vacation poaching or base hopping, this despite zero growth. No right of return for displaced pilots. Bidding for open time has change to give any captain base wide priority over an in base lance, even an in base lance that is senior to the captain. (think senior DAL Lance getting outbid on DAL open time by a junior BWI captain, or a regular MDW lance losing open time to Texas Captains that are based in HOU or DAL)

Seniority is important, but it is a VERY strange time to be sticking seniority in where it didn't used to be since we are at zero growth for a while. As in, we just got age 60 changed and want to REALLY enjoy our seniority while we have it, let's change the rules to give us EVEN MORE bidding power. yea, that's the ticket.

This is why some junior guys seem pissed. It isn't so much the zero growth or slow upgrades, it is the TA shoving more crap down our throats. imo.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Divide and conquer seems to be at play here. I'm sorry to hear that you guys are facing similiar crap as we are at AS, though not nearly as bad IMO. Good luck to ya'll and I hope that we can grow a pair before we all fall on our own swords.

 

[Cobra17]

Shamwow practically sells itself.

This TA...not so much.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Wanting more in this economy when you already have the best seems very foolish.

Funny how "this economy" seems to only apply to the pilot TA. The FA's, Mechanics, ramp all got contract improvements and raises in their TA's.

Now let me think....what do they all have in common? .....<Jeopardy song here>....Ahhh yes, now I remember...

...they have all turned down a TA in their past !!! ( in the case of the mechanics...actually gone on strike).

 

[ivauir]

Just voted no..........

I was hoping I could vote yes but I cant go for all of the codeshare.....plus no RJs over 86 seats???????? 95% of RJs have 86 seats or less!

Sad day.....but it will lead to better.

Read it again dude. Rjs under 86 are not allowed domestically.

 

[RDG]

Read it again dude. Rjs under 86 are not allowed domestically.

Read it again dude. Rjs under 86 are not allowed domestically unless they buy a carrier that already has them. Ask your union rep which carrier that clause applies to and your answer will be they can't say due to confidentiality agreements. They have a carrier in mind.

 

[AlbieF15]

Outsider looking in, but with a lot of friends who have careers in the this fight...

You need to make sure the job you "protect" is worth coming back to if (God forbid) you ever did have a furlough. Code shares, a future with RJs, and less flexibility for trip trading seems to me to be a very concessionary deal. If I were junior I'd vote no.

FWIW...there were also some low employee numbers on some of the anti-TA websites, including captains and guys who've been around a while. One was Mozam who helped a lot of guys get hired. I can only surmise that while they have "got theirs" already they are concerned about the change in direction of the culture and the potential rift in the group that will come if this TA moves forward. They love their company, but they don't like this TA.

Now...for those of you who say "mind your own business" I'll agree it ain't my gig. But we are prepping for our battles in 2010, and when we finally hammer out a TA you can roll in and throw darts are ours too... Fact is SWAPA, ALPA, APA, IPA, or non-union...what happens at one carrier does have a ripple effect on other company's contracts in the future. Hope we can all make some gains in these tough times and not let fear mongering devalue the career until its not worth having.

Good luck to all...

 

[GuppyWN]

This joint will never be the same if the TA passes.

We'll be a domestic United in 2 years - and that aint a compliment.

Gup