Frontier pilots vote to SAVE the airline!!

[GuppyWN]

Gup if you are so worried about your BROTHERS then lets change the age limit back to 60 so your BROTHERS can have a chance to pay their bills. Those over 60 guys are taking jobs from there BROTHERS...yada yada yada....

The pilots of Southwest voted whether to spend dues money to support the Age 65 push. I voted NO. Didn't care for the arbitrary age change. The vote passed, ALPA got onboard and we now retire at 65. Do I like it? Nope. BUT I ACCEPT IT. IMO, that's an example of unity.

As far as your dumping on new guys. Wow man, where to start. I'll keep it short and simple.

Do you know what I call the very last dude on our seniority list? Brother. He earned his shot, got hired and now wears the same ID badge I do. I would give him every rite and priveledge that I would the #1 pilot on the list. If he were to get furloughed I would want to see him back in the cockpit sitting beside me as soon as possible and would do everything ethically possible to do so sooner rather than later. He is a fellow employee and part of my extended family, not a shock absorber.

Gup

 

[Nindiri]

Just curious; how, exactly, are we punishing the company by forcing them to fill a cockpit seat by juniormanning some guy that had other plans with his family instead of filling it with some more junior guy that actually wants to work because he needs the money to make his house payment?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem isn't pilots working for cheap, it is because tools like you don't give a shi t and don't work to raise first and second year pay...

Take my 2 cents back....Nice

Well then why is that I keep voting to not take a paycut, but most of the junior guys are?

Because you can't afford it... you are living at or beyond your means... and you know there are plenty of fodder junior pilots below you that will take the hit before you do.... simply put, you have the luxury of choosing to vote no.

The junior guys are voting for a paycut because they are trying to avoid a 100% paycut...

How do you know what I have done?

Only by what you've said on this thread..

I have tried many times and this is how I realized how there is no brotherhood and nothing will change the way were doing it right now.

What have you done?

Most of the pilots hired within the last few years didn't pay enough dues to want enough. They are just worried about keeping there job over what they are paid.

And that is ethically wrong? in what way?

You are an wait, I'm better then that. I respect your ideas but don't agree.

Fair enough..... and unfortunate it....

 

[regionaltard]

Just curious; how, exactly, are we punishing the company by forcing them to fill a cockpit seat by juniormanning some guy that had other plans with his family instead of filling it with some more junior guy that actually wants to work because he needs the money to make his house payment?

Because getting junior manned makes it impossible for people to say "it's OK, because it's not me that's getting abused." At some point hopefully people wake up and say "enough is enough." Even more important is the message sent by a pilot group that speaks with one voice. Unfortunately in this case that voice seems to be saying "screw those guys on the street, I'm looking out for number 1."

As much as people try to rationalize it, voluntarily picking up extra flying hurts furloughed pilots. Period.

 

[Dizel8]

Hard to be junior manned if you don't answer the phone!

Of course, they could snag you in the jetway, in which case, stuff happens.

 

[PCL_128]

Just curious; how, exactly, are we punishing the company by forcing them to fill a cockpit seat by juniormanning some guy that had other plans with his family instead of filling it with some more junior guy that actually wants to work because he needs the money to make his house payment?

I don't know about Frontier, but some companies only pay straight time for pick-ups, but have to pay premium pay for junior-assignments.

 

[Cardinal]

1.25 to pick up over 82 hours.
1.5 for a juniorman.

 

[Nindiri]

I don't know about Frontier, but some companies only pay straight time for pick-ups, but have to pay premium pay for junior-assignments.

A valid point, no doubt, but it seems to me that it punishes the wrong people. It's chump change to the company, but important to a lot of pilots. A lot of guys on second year FO pay need that money a lot more than the senior FO who gets juniormanned for 1.5 times pay. And it leads to a lot of unfortunate infighting, like the guy who picked up one leg in Oct and is now getting hammered over it.

No matter; hopefully everyone will be back soon and it will be a moot point.

 

[milky]

Really!!! It's that attitude that makes it seem that way.

Tell that to;

1- The CAL pilot that went back to flt 1404 and helped the other injured crewmembers off the aircraft.

2- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that are receiving health benefits reimbursement from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

3- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that were sent a very generous Christmas present from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

I'm sure with your attitude, you would have been all over these programs, NOT!!! Do us all a favor, leave the industry and go into an industry that is all about you!!! Try politics...

Yogi

You guys are so funny to watch. I feel good about myself because I made a difference. The world works on incentive. You guys are your own downfall with the, "nobody's better, we're all brothers in the same union" BS. Some people want to work the minimum, and some people want to work the maximum allowed. That is their business. If the business doesn't support both of you, then somebody has to leave. Unfortunately, since your union doesn't let you differentiate among yourselves, you are all just numbers in the system. So, the only way to know who should go is to cut out the bottom instead of cutting out the least efficient or least willing to try to make money for the company (which is your job).

I personally know two of the 147 furloughed CAL guys. They are both making over $100,000 this year. One found such lucrative flight related work, he will never be back to an airline even if he is recalled at the greatly enticing 2nd year pay. One of the two was so excited to hear about furloughs coming because he knew he could gain seniority while free to go out and earn a real paycheck. But, I'm sure they are glad that you are taking money out of your little paychecks to pay their health insurance and send them a Christmas bonus.

Ahhh. Socialism...

First to call me a member of management or a scab gets $1,000,000! Oh, nobody would do that at the cost of having an intelligent conversation, so I know my money is safe.

 

[check6]

OK. I'll engage without rhetoric and namecalling.

Every hour you fly over your awarded line is keeping your furoughed brothers and sisters without a job. You say the company will "just assign to reserves." GOOD. That uses them up. When there is nothing left "they'll just JA" somebody. Even better. You see, that gives your union something to work with. When you guys pick up like nothing is going on, guess what? The GO thinks nothing is going on. When you force them to properly staff the airline they will recall.

Is it a sacrifice? You bet it is. Would I fly my line if my brothers and sisters were on the street? You bet your arse I would.

I will not apologize for getting tourqed at you. You deserve a lesson in brotherhood and making sacrifices that are good for the whole, not just good for you.

It's called unity. You should try it sometime.

Gup

Very well put. I think more of the younger pilots need to learn this. This is not to say the younger guys are any more clueless than the older guys, but I would say more so it just comes from inexperience. There seems to be such a disconnect with how a pilot group, with or without a union, can force management to take the most economically viable option.

I also agree, as several of you have posted towards the beginning of the thread, that paycuts do not work! If management is asking for paycuts, it just shows they aren't doing their job well enough.

 

[check6]

I have to agree with Bookingsareup that picking up open time while your brothers are furloughed is not a big deal. Pilots just don't get it. Gup if you are so worried about your BROTHERS then lets change the age limit back to 60 so your BROTHERS can have a chance to pay their bills. Those over 60 guys are taking jobs from there BROTHERS...yada yada yada....GUP if you haven't learned by now in avaiton, there is no brotherhood, never was. Funny how that is... Bottom line, we already have to many wannabe pilots willing to work for nothing. At least open time pays what we are worth. Better then hiring or having so many pilots that we all get min pay so we can have a ton of wannabe pilots on board. We need pilots who have worked hard to get that job so they realize what they deserve and fight for it. Look at Fedex or UPS pilots. As for SWA your time is coming where you too will be taking paycuts once your hedges match the other airlines, it is inevitable in avation since there is no brotherhood, never was, and we have too many sell you soul for that job wannabe pilots who we allow to have a job in the first place that haven't earned it yet. If pilots were not willing to work for squat, pilots wouldn't want to work extra....So pick up that open time because that is what pilots are worth. It is fine. The furloughed guys or potential newbies will just have to wait for that 60, I mean 65 year old to retire so he can get his shot. We already have to many wannabe pilots who will work for nothing and sell themself for very little just to have a job and then vote for a paycut to keep it. Screw that. Make them earn that job so they know what they are worth. Gup you got no argument until age 60 is put back in place about there being any BROTHERHOOD! Your age old sayings haven't worked since avaiton was deregulated dude. Wake up. It is becasue pilots work for cheap wages becasue they haven't had to earn it. My 2 cents...

It seems to me that the age 65 law was passed a few months before the airlines started to furlough. I don't think anyone could have predicted airlines were going to be furloughing in the first quarter of say. . . 2009.

I don't believe anyone over the age of 65 is taking jobs from our brothers and sisters. It was their decision and their right to stay. . .simple as that.

Heck, it makes that transition between age 60 and 62 when ya can't even get social security.

 

[HalinTexas]

That's OK, King Obama will be coronated in 10 days, and with his minions in Congress this profession will be saved.

Let Mgmt. impose an 1113(c), and strike 30 days after emergence from BK unless all concessions are returned. The judge has no jurisdiction at that point and DOL will take forever to judge against the pilot group. His Majesty surely won't hold it
against you.

ATA and other pilot groups took concessions to save the company. Look where it got them. Keep your money! Furlough if you must, but keep your money.

 

[StaySeated]

Strike - one organized labor group attempted to strike after an 1113C ruling and they were slapped by an injunction by the district court that was upheld by the circuit court. It is not accurate to state that the judge has no jurisdiction.

Open Time - I hate to rain on everyone's open time circle jerk, but if you actually take a look at our open time over the past several months you will find that we do not have enough open time to build even ONE line. There is commonly several hundred hours of flying in the open time pot, however most of that flying is stacked on a few days (beginning of the month due to transition conflicts) or holidays were the drop limits are maxed during MOT drop and DOT drop. If there was a way that FAPA could bring back one pilot with the flying that is in open time, it would have already been accomplished.

 

[Bookingsareup]

I am open to changing my opinion on this matter if anyone can address the facts of the issues I have put forth and put aside the emotion. Irrational attacks and accusations suggesting I am a scab while you enjoy your aninimity, aa73, are like flipping someone off while you are speeding awayin your car- cowardice.
. The bottom line for me is this: for February we have 17564 total hours of flight time with 231 hard lines approximentally 11 relief lines and 40 listed available reserve lines. So the average flight time spread throughout all lines is around 64 hours ( I know this is not how it is calculated and that I have not included vacation, sick, recrew, etc.) They will also be awarding a limited number of leaves of absence for February. So you could say that they are already slightly overstaffed- which if fine by me.

I know some people on this board like to attack those with whom they disagree. But all you have to do is look at the numbers. I stand by my previous statement” most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!. We as a pilot group are doing what we can to ensure a timely return of all our displaced pilots who wish to return by:

1. endorsing month-to –month LOA’s which keeps more of us employed.
2. Enforcing a minimum time be kept in opentime when constructing monthly lines.
3. Keeping in tact our work rules which allow splitting trips, trip drop, vacation policy etc. Many of these rules support the need for more pilots when compared to some other airlines. Management would have loved to dismantle some of our industry leading work rules but thanks to our negotiating team who successfully represented the pilot group as a whole they remained untouched.

With that said we do have plenty of legitimate issues with management which have, in my opinion put some of our pilots out of work they include:

1. “Shrinking to profitability” by selling aircraft
2. Losing millions to bad fuel hedges thus contributing to example#1
3. Creating a second certificate Lynx, which cost the company over $30 mil. when we could have saved over half that by simply adding the Q-400 to Frontier’s certificate- again, contributing to example#1
4. Fine, we have Lynx and that’s the way it is. But at least offer our furloughed pilots jobs!

I also want to respectfully disagree that pilots are picking up 10 too 20 hours of opentime as a result of our pay cuts. There simply isn’t that much open time I, again maintain an average of 77 hours each month. However, some months I am more schedule minded and other months I am more money minded. I submit to you that this is the case with most pilots thus resulting in a year-over-year average which ultimately is used to determine staffing levels. Correct my history if I am wrong but I believe APA was sued successfully to the tune of $40 mil in the 90’s by AA, and certain Pilots were sued recently by UAL for initiating job action.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I know some people on this board like to attack those with whom they disagree. But all you have to do is look at the numbers. I stand by my previous statement” most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!.

This part of your post invalidates all else...

"everyone else is doing it, so it must be ok..."

Don't try and justify your actions by (probably assuming) that the ones calling you out are just as gulity... even if they were.. that still doesn't make it right for you. Only you control you.

The fact is unity is all you got... no, you really can't put a price on it... certainly it isn't worth the chump change of the open time you picked up.... but in the end the unity is priceless.....

Management watch the open time pick up, certainly under the conditions you are in....

In the end, when those furloughed pilots come back you are going to have to work with them... and you may need them in future to help with another cause... some people never forget...

Selling out your fellow pilots for a few dollars is disgusting and unethical....

 

[njcapt]

I am open to changing my opinion on this matter if anyone can address the facts of the issues I have put forth and put aside the emotion. Irrational attacks and accusations suggesting I am a scab while you enjoy your aninimity, aa73, are like flipping someone off while you are speeding awayin your car- cowardice.
. The bottom line for me is this: for February we have 17564 total hours of flight time with 231 hard lines approximentally 11 relief lines and 40 listed available reserve lines. So the average flight time spread throughout all lines is around 64 hours ( I know this is not how it is calculated and that I have not included vacation, sick, recrew, etc.) They will also be awarding a limited number of leaves of absence for February. So you could say that they are already slightly overstaffed- which if fine by me.

You sound like the old lady at the supermarket rationalizing the act of eating grapes out of the bin. "I've been doing this for fifty years and the store hasn't gone out of business". Sorry, you old bag, it's still stealing.

Blah, blah, blah, rationalization, obfuscation, etc.

Jeez, you spent a lot of effort justifying whoring 'just to get up to 77 hours'. Management isn't FAIR with us, things aren't perfect, I'm only picking up a little bit of open time.

Correct my history if I am wrong but I believe APA was sued successfully to the tune of $40 mil in the 90’s by AA, and certain Pilots were sued recently by UAL for initiating job action.

Yeah, both for organized job actions. I don't think FAPA is stupid enough to put out an order specifically prohibiting the picking up of open time. During both of my airline furloughs I got to hear about selfish jerk-offs volunteering for extra flying, even Captains flying right seat for straight time. It made me sick to hear while I was painting houses and scratching for flying work.

It's an issue of integrity and morals, chief. I'm not sure why I'm wasting the time trying to shame you into doing the right thing. You'll continue to rationalize the act because you deserve it. Because you're sure it doesn't really hurt your furloughed brothers. The same rationalization scabs still use to justify their actions in 1983, 1985, 1989. There's no law prohibiting what you and the other selfish aholes are doing, but believe me when I say that you are spitting in the faces of the F9 furloughees.

 

[climb2slow]

Open Time - I hate to rain on everyone's open time circle jerk, but if you actually take a look at our open time over the past several months you will find that we do not have enough open time to build even ONE line. There is commonly several hundred hours of flying in the open time pot, however most of that flying is stacked on a few days (beginning of the month due to transition conflicts) or holidays were the drop limits are maxed during MOT drop and DOT drop. If there was a way that FAPA could bring back one pilot with the flying that is in open time, it would have already been accomplished.

There isn't opentime left because it all gets sucked up by the hungry w************************* who build their lines up in monthly opentime before it opens. It's the same thing whether you pick it up then or later. If everyone only flew their awarded line value, there would be plenty of opentime, or more lines.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

At least they got snapbacks.

















Or did I read that wrong?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Correct on snapbacks. Work rules UNTOUCHED. This is unprecedented. Rumor has it that the TA was less than HALF of what the Company was asking in negotiations, but they were approaching a deadline where they had to have a deal or the DIP lenders were going to call their loan. Almost guaranteed they would have gotten more in 1113...

Under the TA, our payscale puts us in the MIDDLE of what everybody else is making...

None of us wanted a paycut, but the only choice to make was how are we were going to take it...

I don't think the (then) VP of Flight ops had anything to do with our hedging decisions.

 

[328dude]

The pilots of Southwest voted whether to spend dues money to support the Age 65 push. I voted NO. Didn't care for the arbitrary age change. The vote passed, ALPA got onboard and we now retire at 65. Do I like it? Nope. BUT I ACCEPT IT. IMO, that's an example of unity.

Of course you would, you already got your upgrade.

 

[GuppyWN]

Of course you would, you already got your upgrade.

I was a captain before the age change and I still voted no. Did you?

Gup

 

[328dude]

I was a captain before the age change and I still voted no. Did you?

Gup

Typical captain mentality around here. When you upgraded is irrelevant.

****** the junior guy.......!!!!

 

[Bookingsareup]

just because you scream, yell, and think you are making a difference doesn't make it so. I have put forth effective actions we as pilots can achieve to bring back our furloughed pilots- not symbolic pomp and circumstance that will never bring a single sole back. That said, I still suspect you conform to my #1 description since all you have done is throw out some personal attacks. rather than address my points. I consider all of my fellow pilots as brethren and have proved that by my actions. For those who disagree with me I respect your opinion and instead off calling you a scab, ahole, or old woman I put forth facts, and an unemotional argument in attempts to persuade. I do not loath those who disagree with me no matter how ill informed I may believe he or she may be.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have put forth effective actions we as pilots can achieve to bring back our furloughed pilots- .

like what?

 

[starchkr]

While i agree with Gup on picking up opentime in theory, i "almost" have to agree with bookingsareup in actions.

Yes i pick up opentime...why?! Well how about those of us who had a two income family "before" the initial paycuts and downturn in the economy, who now have a single income which has also now been cut by 14.5%(first cut) but brought back up to only a 10% cut. I agreed to have my wife go back to school knowing that my current income(back in january last year) was enough to sqweek by on around the house until she was done...no problem. Then 5 months later when down to one income, which was ok, we got hit with a paycut which brought my income down below liveable standards for my family...those standards being only enough to pay the bills and put food on the table, we didn't need the extras in life right then. So i began to pick up opentime to bring my income back up to the minimum required to support my family...is that so wrong?

I understand the idea of brotherhood and i want the furloughees back just as soon as the next guy, but don't i have an obligation to my family to support them? Some would say yes, some no...in my opinion, my family is the most important thing on earth, and i surely hope you all feel the same about your families.

As far as junior maning goes, i would prefer every pilot not accept a junior man to show the company we are short. For one it costs the company more to send out a JM, which right now is BAD! Also if we were to start having the issue of cancelling flights because of a lack of pilots able to fly then i feel that would help call the furloughs back sooner than JM's ever would.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

While i agree with Gup on picking up opentime in theory, i "almost" have to agree with bookingsareup in actions.

Yes i pick up opentime...

What do you mean ..."almost"....

why?! Well how about those......

.....that are furloughed, bringing in only unemployment checks?

If making a little extra money is so important... (and it may be) then why not get a side gig

I understand the idea of brotherhood and i want the furloughees back just as soon as the next guy, but don't i have an obligation to my family to support them? Some would say yes, some no...in my opinion, my family is the most important thing on earth, and i surely hope you all feel the same about your families.

Glad to hear it... I voted for Obama too.

 

[Cardinal]

For one it costs the company more to send out a JM, which right now is BAD!

So it's BAD for the company to have pilots flying around at 1.5x their rate on a juniorman, but it's GOOD for you to fly around at 1.25x above 82 hours?

Like I said earlier, I knew y'all were going to pick up as much time as ya could. The justifications get kinda nauseating, but whatever.

In all seriousness, I do have one question, and I'm not using the "s" word, I've always like'd you, starchkr. But couldn't the "I just need to pay my family's bills" argument be applied to any withholding of service? Where is the line drawn? At what point are actions that are of a short term benefit to the individual and the company curtailed in the name of a broader cause? I'm genuinely curious, and not trying to be inflammatory.

 

[starchkr]

Cardinal, i'll try to clear up any confusion i may have implied.

As far as 1.25 or 1.5 goes...as a commuter for the last year and a half, i have been lucky to get near 82 hours and still have a home life. My closest i have been was last month and it was a total of 81.7 hours. Now i know that even you know that i did not make 1.25 for ANY of my flying last month, nor did i accept ANY JM calls that came my way(i have not accepted any JM calls in more than 2 years). My average flight time per month was just above 70 (just to keep myself out of Cam's...well now Jim's office) before the cuts and has been holding steady right around 79-80 since the pay cuts. Again, I would rather be at home than on the road with anyone that works at F9...now that wasn't meant to be negative towards the employees here just to show that my family is number one in my book.

I am sorry that there are guys on the street, and that is not my fault that they are there, you would need to look to management to find your answers, and i am sure you saw just as many problems with management as i have over the last year or more. No matter what industry i am in, whether it be flying, banking, construction or anything else, i would still be required to look after my family as my number one priority...period. I made a promise to them to do just that and i intend to uphold that. I understand that as a furloughee in these economic times there may be little if any jobs out there for those 57 to support their families, but i would bet(not being negative here) that they too would see it the same way had i been on the street and they still had a line.

No i do not pick up as much as i could, if i wanted to do that i would have nearly 100 block every month and no time at home, but that's not my intent.

Drawing the line and short term benefit to the individual. Well, for me there is no short term benefit...it's more of a long term survival. I don't pay my bills and i lose the roof over my families head, our cars and anything else i pay for every month. Savings you ask, well, that went to an education, and hopefully once that is done(more than a year and a half away) we will be able to get some of that back in the long term. I realize that is what is happening to some of our furloughees, but again, unfortunately i am not the one who put them out on the street(not being negative again) so i have no idea what they were thinking over at the GO. Now also, that we have agreed to a 10% cut (not happy with that by the way) and the fact that this month i get a pay increase i am able to knock back a few hours from my previous average, to give me more time at home again.

I hope i helped and didn't make it more confusing...(?) Don't know if i exactly answered the last question either, but i really didn't know what to say.

REZ..."almost" was in reference to how i do not like the way he went about it and while i agree more with Gup, i unfortunately follow Book's idea by picking up opentime...but only enough to make up my paycut, not by being an opentime whore.

A little extra money was never the intent, extra is something i agreed with my family to not have until my wife graduates. If i wanted extra i would get another side job, but then again, how would that enable me to spend "more" time at home like i was used to before our pay cuts?

Now last, while i fully stand by that last statement you quoted, i DID NOT vote for Obama...

 

[Captzaahlie]

Don't worry - usair pulled the same "we're liquidating" stunt and it sure turned out fine for their pilots.

Sure except for those of us with out a job right now....

 

[milky]

If making a little extra money is so important... (and it may be) then why not get a side gig

It's none of your business if somebody wants to work a second job or pick up extra time. The contract says that members can pick up extra time. It doesn't say that picking up extra time is illegal if somebody is furloughed. If a man needs to earn money to support his family, that is his business. Why don't you just quit so that somebody can have your job?