NTSB on sleeping Mesa pilots incident, pt 1

[kf4amu]

Eggs, meat, some carbos like bread. Don't skimp. That extra biscuit or slice of bacon will NOT kill you.

Nu

Where do you get this at 4am? Do you bring a skillet/griddle, pancake mix, eggs and bacon with you?

 

[densoo]

Heyas,

Seeing what crap people eat for breakfast, if at all, it doesn't surprise me that people have a hard time operating.

You just (hopefully) slept 6-7 hours, add to that a couple of hours before hand, plus an hour and a bit to get ready and get to work, and you've just fasted for 12+ hours. Your blood sugar is at it's lowest ebb. When your mom told you it was the most important meal of the day, she wasn't kidding.

People, you HAVE to eat in the morning! And not crap like a danish or all carbs like a cold bowl of cereal. You need a balanced meal of protein AND carbs.

Eggs, meat, some carbos like bread. Don't skimp. That extra biscuit or slice of bacon will NOT kill you.

Nu

With a 430am hotel van, it is unusual to be in a hotel with a restaurant open that time of day. More likely than not, the food establishments in the airport aren't even open yet, if you're in an airport big enough to have them. I guess these guys were in their homes, but most pilots are not during a multi-day trip. Food on planes went away a long time ago. Are there even any airlines left that actually cater food for the crew? American or Delta maybe. I think one still has a contract that if a first class meal is served on the flight, then they will catered for the pilots to have one, too. Below legacy though, I'm not sure there is even that.

 

[WSurf]

so you want to ban early flight ops? give me a break they had rest of 13 hours min. this just makes all pilots look bad

What? You wake-up at 3am for a 4am report.... Fly 8 legs and finish 12-14hrs later!!!!

Are you kidding, that is hard F'in work!

You can have 13 hrs of duty free time, but if the company is going from AM to PM to AM it can be tuff on your sleeping patterns.

For a 3am wake-up then you need to be sleeping by 7pm. Not making accuses, but for you to think that doesn't make for a hard day is just silly.

 

[Raoul Duke]

read the NTSB description all of their trips were 4 am to 2 pm. It may be hard but it is not unsafe.

 

[satpak77]

FYI I bring Clif-Bars with me at all times, and lots of bottled water. They taste the best of all the nutritional bars, and pack like 250 calories.

If no restaurant is expected for a meal (this could be breakfast, or lunch, or even dinner), I will eat half of one like one hour before my normal meal time, drink lots of water, then maybe 30 minutes past my meal time, eat the other half, along with lots of water.

Breakfast is THE most important meal of the day. If you go to sleep at 11 PM, and don't eat breakfast, then eat lunch, you basically fasted for 12 hours. Not good.

I also recommend an apple or even a handful of pretzels at bedtime to keep the blood sugar up.

fly safe, this could happen to any of us.

 

[Ty Webb]

Rah-Tool

fly safe, this could happen to any of us.

Except for Raoul. If he falls asleep at his desk, he won't end up on the news, he'll just miss his tee-time :laugh:.

TW

 

[milky]

Where do you get this at 4am? Do you bring a skillet/griddle, pancake mix, eggs and bacon with you?

Denny's. Waffle house. Yum.

 

[WSurf]

Denny's. Waffle house. Yum.

Heheh, yea the Waffle House at 4am and then by 9am you'll surely have the schlitz!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Where do you get this at 4am? Do you bring a skillet/griddle, pancake mix, eggs and bacon with you?

Waffle House....They're everywhere.

(Milky beat me to it...ooops)

 

[Stifler's Mom]

The captain said that he snored loudly at night, and that he had raised the issue with his personal physician in December 2007. He stated that his physician had told him to lose weight, eat less salt, and relax.

My wife told me that this could be prevented by wearing a jockstrap.

Evidently, female research shows that men snore when their balls cover their a$shole and vapor lock ensues.

 

[Bringupthebird]

An undiagnosed medical condition doesn't explain intentional napping that he admitted to. It explains this unintentional nap, but it can't justify his naps that he took on purpose. I'm not condemning the guy for taking naps, since we've all been tired flying regional schedules, but admitting to it is just a bad idea. It makes us all look bad in the press, and it makes his case much more difficult when he tries to keep his certs and job.

Sleep apnea is medically disqualifying. He's probably out on permanent disability so he may not care about covering for inhumane scheduling anymore.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Why is this even in the Majors section?

 

[NuGuy]

Where do you get this at 4am? Do you bring a skillet/griddle, pancake mix, eggs and bacon with you?

Laugh all you want, but the railroaders have in their contracts that any hotel MUST have hot food available 24/7. MOT is such a place, so when we stayed there, we got to benefit from it.

Also, at 10 hours duty, the train stops...wherever it is.

If it matters, you make it happen...oh yea, they're under the RLA, too.

Nu

 

[kf4amu]

Laugh all you want, but the railroaders have in their contracts that any hotel MUST have hot food available 24/7. MOT is such a place, so when we stayed there, we got to benefit from it.

Also, at 10 hours duty, the train stops...wherever it is.

If it matters, you make it happen...oh yea, they're under the RLA, too.

Nu

Well I agree we should have that...but what airlines do?

 

[AirportBum]

My wife told me that this could be prevented by wearing a jockstrap.

Evidently, female research shows that men snore when their balls cover their a$shole and vapor lock ensues.

This is my vote for FI funniest post of 2009 so far. I'm still laughing out loud.

I only wish I had this explanation of vapor lock when I was flight instructing. :laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

Mesa schedules are not just about the day's schedule- or even the weeks. It's more about the month and the year- and really the years piled onto one another- they don't get the time off. Many times less than 10 days a month.

The reversing of your sleep schedule is the most damaging aspect of an airline schedule. I've had 27 hour layovers where you get to the hotel at 1am and end up with a 4 am wakeup call- how do you handle that? Much less scheduled reduced rest, 5 day trips,etc. THERE IS A CUMULATIVE AFFECT.
You can fly these schedules for a short period, but they catch up with you eventually- especially when a company constantly screws with you like mesa does. Schedule changes. Pilot intimidation. Weak union inundated with grievances they'll never have the $$ or time to deal with.
Mesa needs to go away- along with every other airline that operates like this. They take advantage of our professionalism and responsibility.

 

[densoo]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111541032752579.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Continental Airlines Inc. and AMR Corp.'s American Airlines have filed a joint lawsuit opposing enhanced crew-rest and other safety requirements imposed by U.S. regulators on the longest international flights.
The litigation highlights the difficulties the Federal Aviation Administration faces in devising measures to combat pilot fatigue, particularly on nonstop runs lasting 16 hours or longer. As airlines seek greater productivity from flight crews across the board, tired and sleepy pilots are considered one of the major safety issues confronting U.S. commercial aviation.

 

[densoo]

Continental Airlines Inc. and AMR Corp.'s American Airlines have filed a joint lawsuit opposing enhanced crew-rest and other safety requirements imposed by U.S. regulators on the longest international flights.
The litigation highlights the difficulties the Federal Aviation Administration faces in devising measures to combat pilot fatigue, particularly on nonstop runs lasting 16 hours or longer. As airlines seek greater productivity from flight crews across the board, tired and sleepy pilots are considered one of the major safety issues confronting U.S. commercial aviation.

the suit asks for a review of "new and different regulatory requirements" which entail "substantial burdens and costs" on carriers.

Just like secure cockpit doors had "substantial burdens and costs" before 2001.

What is ultimate cost in having exhausted crews?

 

[EWR_FO]

Just like secure cockpit doors had "substantial burdens and costs" before 2001.

What is ultimate cost in having exhausted crews?

The proposed change will lead to more fatigue, not less. These trips, right now, are all about sleep management. If you can stay relatively close to your "own" time zone, they are far less demanding than two-man domestic flying. This rule change will make it much more difficult for all four guys to stay on their "own" time. This is just another example of the FAA legislating something they know absolutely nothing about.

The long haul rules don't need change, the domestic short haul rules do.

 

[zawillif]

It sounds like if they had only contacted ALPA first, then immediately called the chief pilot and admitted the mistake they might still have jobs.

 

[machaf]

.

Not to go out quietly...good old Emir pissed all over his Mesa Dorm room. I'm not sure how much curry you need to eat to make your piss smell like that! I still remember Larry Risley running up the hallway screaming some obscenity. It was the funniest thing I can remember.

LMFAO!

 

[Browntothebone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Laugh all you want, but the railroaders have in their contracts that any hotel MUST have hot food available 24/7. MOT is such a place, so when we stayed there, we got to benefit from it.

Also, at 10 hours duty, the train stops...wherever it is.

If it matters, you make it happen...oh yea, they're under the RLA, too.

Nu

Well I agree we should have that...but what airlines do?

UPS has it in their contract. Plus all their long flights and short flights with an early show are catered.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Where do you get this at 4am? Do you bring a skillet/griddle, pancake mix, eggs and bacon with you?

never mind

 

[CKJET]

Mesa schedules are not just about the day's schedule- or even the weeks. It's more about the month and the year- and really the years piled onto one another- they don't get the time off. Many times less than 10 days a month.

The reversing of your sleep schedule is the most damaging aspect of an airline schedule. I've had 27 hour layovers where you get to the hotel at 1am and end up with a 4 am wakeup call- how do you handle that? Much less scheduled reduced rest, 5 day trips,etc. THERE IS A CUMULATIVE AFFECT.
You can fly these schedules for a short period, but they catch up with you eventually- especially when a company constantly screws with you like mesa does. Schedule changes. Pilot intimidation. Weak union inundated with grievances they'll never have the $$ or time to deal with.
Mesa needs to go away- along with every other airline that operates like this. They take advantage of our professionalism and responsibility.

This is not just Mesa... this is everywhere the names and times change but the results are still the same. I because of my great luck have been forced to commute to ANC from NJ, often will work 2-3 days flying all night normally say 21:00-09:00 by the time get to the hotel. Then have a 10:00AM check in the next day. Unless we all just call in sick one day the only way it will change is if someone puts a passenger plane into the ground because of it. It is sad but true.

However I don't think "napping" is a solution. A six pack of red bull along with some potato chips can normally get through the switching of schedules. Just my two cents.

 

[waveflyer]

it IS an issue for all pilots- you're an idiot if you don't think this affects us all.
1st- stop giving your flying away to these carriers.
2nd- scheds at the bk majors aren't all that different.

"6-pack of red bull and potato chips"

like i said-= you can do that for a while- but it's like fast food- won't kill you today- but it'll kill you eventually- or if youre lucky- end your career and give you a wake up call first

 

[CKJET]

it IS an issue for all pilots- you're an idiot if you don't think this affects us all.
1st- stop giving your flying away to these carriers.
2nd- scheds at the bk majors aren't all that different.

"6-pack of red bull and potato chips"

like i said-= you can do that for a while- but it's like fast food- won't kill you today- but it'll kill you eventually- or if youre lucky- end your career and give you a wake up call first

I'm not sure if you are insulting me or you agree with me so I'll just move on with life and try to get some sleep.

 

[LarryinTN]

Sleep apnea is medically disqualifying. He's probably out on permanent disability

No, it's not. I know several pilots who have special issuance for severe sleep apnea. They were out about two months from diagnosis to return to duty.

 

[waveflyer]

no- not insulting you, the person, but i am insulting the red bull and chips comment- you offer no solution except some monster walk out you know will never happen= then give off some defeated fatalistic rhetoric.
I definitely and always insult that. you have way more control than that- we all do.
oh- and i was insulting EVERY major airline pilot that ever voted to outsource flying.

 

[glasspilot1]

What I am curious about is that the FO has a G-1159 type rating. Where'd he get it and why is he at Mesa with that type?

He went to Mesa for the raise?

 

[bigshooter107]

After failing the test, they fired him. Not to go out quietly...good old Emir pissed all over his Mesa Dorm room. I'm not sure how much curry you need to eat to make your piss smell like that! I still remember Larry Risley running up the hallway screaming some obscenity. It was the funniest thing I can remember.[/quote]

Simply classic. My morning is now complete.
By the way four pages and Im the first to report
Mesa Sucks!