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Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

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Caveman said:
They enter into long term contracts with Airbus and the Port Authority. Does that hinder their abilitity to be flexible too? Why should a 3-5 year contract with the pilots be any different? Nobody else JetBlue deals with operates without a written binding agreement. Why should employees be any different?
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No CBA is iron clad. The "differing" interpetations begin when the ink is barely dry.

Then you have Force Majuer and CH 11 to also break your CBA.

For the record (and despite Bavarian's insistence that all who differ from him are nuts), I am not against a union per se. Having actually been ALPA for 13+ years at regional, major cargo and major pax airlines, I can say with experience that what we have, while far from perfect, is worth a few more years of patience to have leadership put their plans in place.

Everyone seems to be quick to dismiss the spotty measured improvements that have taken place under unprecedented financial and energy turmoil.

And what's the no furlough worth to you? Oh, you don't care since you're not on the bottom?

A union is NOT going to be the one and all solution that many think it will be.

I'm willing to give them two years to make the improvements in medical, retirement and compensation that need to happen.

Everyone is free to make their choice. But these guys that beat their chests and spay their clam sauce breath in my face... GIVE IT A REST.
 
8vATE said:
I'm willing to give them two years to make the improvements in medical, retirement and compensation that need to happen.
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And if those improvements do not materialize, then what, another PCRB?
 
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BLUE BAYOU said:
Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.
__________________
...I think military guys can't think outside of the box, and they are afraid of weather. -- the SWA/FO

I can't believe a grown adult can write this stuff... You're too personal for a Navy guy, maybe that's why they have their names imprinted on their rear pant pockets...
user_offline.gif
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Ahhhhh the Sleestacks. After years of therapy I had forgotten about them. Then you had to go and say it........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTPWDlpzASg&feature=related
 
Caveman said:
They enter into long term contracts with Airbus and the Port Authority. Does that hinder their abilitity to be flexible too? Why should a 3-5 year contract with the pilots be any different? Nobody else JetBlue deals with operates without a written binding agreement. Why should employees be any different?
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention long term contracts. I seem to recall that airlines prefer known "fixed costs" as opposed to variable unknowns. It seems to me that contract rates are good for a couple years at least but our current system allows for annual review of compensation. The problem is, they can choose to annually ignore the fact that we are below industry average at every level of compensation.

Vote now!
 
nosoupforyou! said:
Funny you should mention long term contracts. I seem to recall that airlines prefer known "fixed costs" as opposed to variable unknowns. It seems to me that contract rates are good for a couple years at least but our current system allows for annual review of compensation. The problem is, they can choose to annually ignore the fact that we are below industry average at every level of compensation.

Vote now!
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I'd say, by far, we are way above industry standards for lack of furloughs. Also, for those who continue to compare JBLU with SWA-- please, an 8.5 y/o airline vs a 38.5 y/o airline is no comparison... Nor is us with UPS or FedEx either... We're headed into the worse year for air travel in 50+ years, I'd say the timing is WAY OFF for a union that will most likely get us nothing but an additional paycut and furloughs when drawn-out neophite negotiations years later are complete. Meanwhile, other smaller in-house unions like NPA will go by the wayside. Truly, if we were going for a union, with our size, ALPA would be a better choice-- and look at what they've done for Cactus and the other airlines lately!!!
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
First of all, COL Beard flew B-52s so you have the wrong guy! Additionally, 35% of the pilots showed interest in JBPA, they did not vote for it, YET. If the economy continues on its pace, I think you'll find that in the end-- JBLU pilots will not vote for JBPA, they'd rather keep their jobs and be hopeful for a more meaningful existence in the future, hopefully, as the economy and our company prospers...
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Are you sure it's only 35%?

BTW, where in your profile does it say what you flew in the AF?
 
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How about some facts on how much this JBPA thing is going to cost-- they say 1% of my gross salary/year will be the dues-- crap, if everyone made a combined average of $100,000/year (and thats probably close) that would only generate $1.9 million to run a union... (that's assuming all 1900 will become members) Um, that doesn't even fund the "war chest" the company provides for free now... Nor will it even come close to paying all the lawyers, office fees, or union leaders' lunches... Many years ago when SWA was given money to start a union, wasn't that figure around $10 million 30 years ago?SO, how much are our "special assessments going to be to really start off an in-house union? Is it going to be what I put aside for my daughter's college? Will we in a couple of years, when dissastisfied with JBPA because they couldn't provide anything for us, be in Airtran's shoes-- looking to trade unions... I guess only a Navy guy could understand the humor in this...
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
How about some facts on how much this JBPA thing is going to cost-- they say 1% of my gross salary/year will be the dues-- crap, if everyone made a combined average of $100,000/year (and thats probably close) that would only generate $1.9 million to run a union... (that's assuming all 1900 will become members) Um, that doesn't even fund the "war chest" the company provides for free now... Nor will it even come close to paying all the lawyers, office fees, or union leaders' lunches... Many years ago when SWA was given money to start a union, wasn't that figure around $10 million 30 years ago?SO, how much are our "special assessments going to be to really start off an in-house union? Is it going to be what I put aside for my daughter's college? Will we in a couple of years, when dissastisfied with JBPA because they couldn't provide anything for us, be in Airtran's shoes-- looking to trade unions... I guess only a Navy guy could understand the humor in this...
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OK, you convinced me!!!

We need ALPA's warchest. 2% for access to ALPA's $$ and resources. DONE! Thanks for your help!!
 
Indy refugee said:
OK, you convinced me!!!

We need ALPA's warchest. 2% for access to ALPA's $$ and resources. DONE! Thanks for your help!!
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Of all the ACA/Indy Air people we picked up, I've only flown with 2 that I would consider worthy by character standards... All the others, are very ungrateful that Jetblue took them on after their demise.
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
How about some facts on how much this JBPA thing is going to cost-- they say 1% of my gross salary/year will be the dues-- crap, if everyone made a combined average of $100,000/year (and thats probably close) that would only generate $1.9 million to run a union... (that's assuming all 1900 will become members) Um, that doesn't even fund the "war chest" the company provides for free now... Nor will it even come close to paying all the lawyers, office fees, or union leaders' lunches... Many years ago when SWA was given money to start a union, wasn't that figure around $10 million 30 years ago?SO, how much are our "special assessments going to be to really start off an in-house union? Is it going to be what I put aside for my daughter's college? Will we in a couple of years, when dissastisfied with JBPA because they couldn't provide anything for us, be in Airtran's shoes-- looking to trade unions... I guess only a Navy guy could understand the humor in this...
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That statement alone tells me how disconnected you are from 2/3 of this pilot group. I'm a 3rd year FO and I don't make anywhere near $100K. A handful of our super senior Airbus FO's might be near $100K if they are working their tails off. Our 190 CAs aren't averaging anything near $100K either. Don't even get me started about the 190 FOs. Most of them will be lucky to make $50K. The only folks making any real bank at JetBlue are senior CAs living in base, gaming PTX, and picking up RSA's The rest of us aren't doing nearly as well as the upper 5%. My guess is the average Airbus CA here makes about $125-130K. Only a select few do much better than that. There is no way the average pilot wage at this company is close to $100K.
 
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zonker said:
Sort of like the abundance of super senior B6 turds that couldn't get hired anywhere else before 9/11.
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very true!

M
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
Of all the ACA/Indy Air people we picked up, I've only flown with 2 that I would consider worthy by character standards... All the others, are very ungrateful that Jetblue took them on after their demise.
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There is an interesting dynamic that occurs when proud airline pilots lose their company, seniority and slide back in pay and status.

Some Indy Air pilots went to Netjets as well. Often a NJA (or JB) CA would be less experienced than the Indy Air transplant. First off it is quite humbling to start over, but then to be treated as inferior by your inferior is quite frustrating.

It is not that the more experienced Indy Air CA is now a less experienced CA's FO, it is the way the NJA or JB Captains treats the FO.

It could all be resolved by the NJA or JB CA simply asking his/her FO "What is your experience?"

Any good CRM program would be having a majority of CAs doing this anyway. As a CA wouldn't you want to know if this guy can hand fly the jet, single pilot down to mins at JFK?

Any Indy pilot could, just as any JB pilot could.

The reason you have not meet agreeable Indy Air pilots is because:

1. They are being treated like low time FO's. Ask them who they are and where they come from. It is win/win for all.

2. When an experienced pilot, loses his job and company, like Indy Air, that is bad enough, but when you get treated like a new pilot, it is salt in the wound. To bring so much more to the table only to be discarded is poor leadership on the CA.

3. Maybe JB didn't meet their expectations... I am not saying their expectations are realistic or not... just that they weren't met....
 
Caveman said:
There is no way the average pilot wage at this company is close to $100K.
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Really? Why don't you find out what the pilot payroll is at B6. $190 million sound about right? Divide that by the 1900 pilots and that comes out to...............$100K. So, sadly the 1% dues will only amount to about 1.9 million a year and will probably put them far short of where they need to be. My prediction, ain't no way it's gonna happen with 1% dues.
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
Of all the ACA/Indy Air people we picked up, I've only flown with 2 that I would consider worthy by character standards... All the others, are very ungrateful that Jetblue took them on after their demise.
Click to expand...

You can probably reduce that number to one. I'm ex indy and I'll tell you straight to your face that you're a tool. All you are is a seniority number doing a job that anyone of us could do. And just to get it straight, I left Indy before their collapse. Oh by the way, thanks Indy for the free bus type.
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
Of all the ACA/Indy Air people we picked up, I've only flown with 2 that I would consider worthy by character standards... All the others, are very ungrateful that Jetblue took them on after their demise.
Click to expand...


Maybe you're the problem. I've flown with maybe two that I feel the opposite about.
 
Mamma said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUE BAYOU
I only quoted this crap from Bavarian Chef, do a search, its his quote-- stop attaching me to it...




Hey! Don't attach the Air Force to a tool like this! It makes us all look bad you dumb squid.
Click to expand...

Whatever, you AFRES loser. Isn't there a gubment teet somewhere you should be sucking on?

BTW-- call me this week. Got a doozy for you.
 
Caveman said:
That statement alone tells me how disconnected you are from 2/3 of this pilot group. I'm a 3rd year FO and I don't make anywhere near $100K. A handful of our super senior Airbus FO's might be near $100K if they are working their tails off. Our 190 CAs aren't averaging anything near $100K either. Don't even get me started about the 190 FOs. Most of them will be lucky to make $50K. The only folks making any real bank at JetBlue are senior CAs living in base, gaming PTX, and picking up RSA's The rest of us aren't doing nearly as well as the upper 5%. My guess is the average Airbus CA here makes about $125-130K. Only a select few do much better than that. There is no way the average pilot wage at this company is close to $100K.
Click to expand...

SO EASY EVEN A CAVEMAN COULD READ... I said the average of all pilots is about $100,000 which is about the pilot payroll of $190 million-- do the math, 1% of this is only $1.9 million to run a union per year; I would say that is WAY SHORT of what is needed to even start one. SO why won't any answers come out of all the BLUEPILOTS JBPA backers on this matter? What will be our "special assessment" to get this show started, and oh, what if I don't want to be a JBPA member... I have that right, so you won't even see near the money you will from me that a normal due paying member will be assessed. What if there are hundreds that don't join, will the 1% of your salary work? What if all the senior guys here don't become members? Will the union survive on the average 1% from the F/Os salary? I think if the union route is planned, then you might want to consider ALPA-- we are too small for an in-house union, look at the troubles Airtran is having with their's.
 
Why not go in-house and get some work done in your current political environment?

If Jetblue decides to make life miserable for all of you then you can avail yourselves of ALPA resources and merge.

By then, you'll have an organizational structure in place, you'll have worked through some issues that every union faces starting up, and you will have a group of volunteers in place with experience working with Jetblue management.

Also, you will have seen Jetblue's true colors as well as their books.
 
Agreed. The JetBlue pilots aren't ready to accept ALPA, but they need a union. An in-house union like the JBPA is a great way to get things going.
 
$2 mm a year is pretty significant money, if your guys don't start feeding from the dues trough, it leaves lots of room for a small paid staff and a little bit of buying trips from the company for representation issues and meetings.

It's $166,000 per month. Do you really think that you can't get anything done for $166,000 per month? You could hire a full time director at $10,000 per month, a secretary at $4,000 per month and still have $150k to spend.
 
radarlove said:
$2 mm a year is pretty significant money, if your guys don't start feeding from the dues trough, it leaves lots of room for a small paid staff and a little bit of buying trips from the company for representation issues and meetings.

It's $166,000 per month. Do you really think that you can't get anything done for $166,000 per month? You could hire a full time director at $10,000 per month, a secretary at $4,000 per month and still have $150k to spend.
Click to expand...

Don't confuse Bayou with facts, his mind is made up!
 
Would JB be closed shop? How does that work anyway?
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
Of all the ACA/Indy Air people we picked up, I've only flown with 2 that I would consider worthy by character standards... All the others, are very ungrateful that Jetblue took them on after their demise.
Click to expand...


As a 6 yr JBLU guy I've found just the opposite. I find the Indy guys to be great to fly with. Really enjoyed my time when I fly with them.
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
How about some facts on how much this JBPA thing is going to cost-- they say 1% of my gross salary/year will be the dues-- crap, if everyone made a combined average of $100,000/year (and thats probably close) that would only generate $1.9 million to run a union... (that's assuming all 1900 will become members) Um, that doesn't even fund the "war chest" the company provides for free now... Nor will it even come close to paying all the lawyers, office fees, or union leaders' lunches... Many years ago when SWA was given money to start a union, wasn't that figure around $10 million 30 years ago?SO, how much are our "special assessments going to be to really start off an in-house union? Is it going to be what I put aside for my daughter's college? Will we in a couple of years, when dissastisfied with JBPA because they couldn't provide anything for us, be in Airtran's shoes-- looking to trade unions... I guess only a Navy guy could understand the humor in this...
Click to expand...

But I thought all the Captains at JetBlue averaged 82 hours per month and made $150 k a year?

signed,
a B6 captain who hasn't cracked $135k in the 6 going on 7 years I have been here.
 

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