AirTran Airways pilots launch ALPA ballot drive!

[Regul8r]

End of discussion.

You guys can be mad at ALPA all you want, but those are the simple, bottom-line facts.

You want change? NOTHING but FORCE is going to accomplish it. The only way to force anything with the RLA is with the ABILITY to strike. Without a war chest, a strike isn't going to happen.

Sorry you don't like it, but those facts are simply indisputable, with YEARS of history at AirTran behind it.

So having a war-chest is going to strike fear into the heart of your management and they will acquiesce to your demands? Interesting...

As for the UPS vs FDX contracts...absolutely right: UPS has a bush league contract. Those guys got SCREWED! Man, what a bunch'a losers!

 

[Ty Webb]

UPS transitioned from IBT to their independent union . . . just a little different.

What do you care, anyway? If you're at FL, then how about a nice warm cup of STFU. .. . . If you aren't at FL, have two.

Ty

 

[Regul8r]

I disagree with you, therefore I need to serve myself a cup (preferably warm) of STFU? Seems like a well articulated statement based in maturity, wisdom, and pragmatism...

And you're pro-ALPA, huh? Cute...

 

[Lear70]

So having a war-chest is going to strike fear into the heart of your management and they will acquiesce to your demands? Interesting...

That's your assumption... and you're welcome to it.

It's not, however, what I said. Try again. Without putting your own spin on it. That's what people who have no argument to directly defend their position do.

If you have a way for the pilots at AirTran to be able to develop their own multi-million dollar contingency strike fund/war chest of well over $5 Million Dollars PLUS add to their personal savings level inside of a year (pilot payroll is estimated between $1.1M and 1.4M per month), then please let us know.

Without a strike fund, the pilots at ANY airline find it more difficult to stomach a strike. Yes, the pilot group needs unity. Yes, the pilot group needs resolve. And a way to continue to feed their children and keep the lights on is part of that resolve.

But you knew that, you were simply being childish.

Now try an adult's response to the post.

 

[Regul8r]

That's your assumption... and you're welcome to it.

It's not, however, what I said. Try again. Without putting your own spin on it. That's what people who have no argument to directly defend their position do.

Sure...I sensationalized it some...but the point still stands. Rez directly implied that having a war-chest will gain leverage at the negotiating table. A more realistic response would be that it would only gain some leverage. But from what I see...you guys are helpless when it comes to voting in poor officers. Now you're going to have ill-equipped officers wearing ALPA badges.

If you have a way for the pilots at AirTran to be able to develop their own multi-million dollar contingency strike fund/war chest of well over $5 Million Dollars PLUS add to their personal savings level inside of a year (pilot payroll is estimated between $1.1M and 1.4M per month), then please let us know.

If the strike fund had the desired effect you'd like, why do you still have Pinnacle and Mesa contracts out there? What did it do for the Midwest or DHL pilots? How about the Aloha or ATA pilots? How about the Mesa pilots who will soon be flying as Aloha pilots?

I'm ready for the knee-jerk response "Well, if you look at FedEx..."

Without a strike fund, the pilots at ANY airline find it more difficult to stomach a strike. Yes, the pilot group needs unity. Yes, the pilot group needs resolve...

You've answered your own problem: The pilot group needs unity and resolve. ALPA isn't the merry-maid of the industry. If you can't get your own house in order, what makes you think ALPA will do it for you?

The "I tried nuthin' and I'm all outta ideas" attitude is just as prevalent at ALPA carriers as well.

 

[PCL_128]

Sure...I sensationalized it some...but the point still stands. Rez directly implied that having a war-chest will gain leverage at the negotiating table. A more realistic response would be that it would only gain some leverage. But from what I see...you guys are helpless when it comes to voting in poor officers. Now you're going to have ill-equipped officers wearing ALPA badges.

Officers that are struggling now will have much better luck when they have real legal advice, a real communications department, real SPC support, etc... Personally, I think Mike Best could make a pretty good MEC Chairman, if he's willing to stay in the position. He's simply not capable of working a miracle and making the NPA effective. The NPA is broken, and it isn't fixable.

If the strike fund had the desired effect you'd like, why do you still have Pinnacle and Mesa contracts out there?

The Pinnacle contract was signed in 1999, and it was industry-standard at the time. The Mesa contract was signed at gun-point because of the Freedumb fiasco. Scope was the top priority.

What did it do for the Midwest or DHL pilots? How about the Aloha or ATA pilots? How about the Mesa pilots who will soon be flying as Aloha pilots?

Unions can't stop bad managers from mismanaging companies right out of business.

 

[Lear70]

Sure...I sensationalized it some...but the point still stands. Rez directly implied that having a war-chest will gain leverage at the negotiating table. A more realistic response would be that it would only gain some leverage. But from what I see...you guys are helpless when it comes to voting in poor officers. Now you're going to have ill-equipped officers wearing ALPA badges.

Not necessarily.

Several candidates with prior ALPA experience and with prior experience negotiating successful contracts are waiting...

If the strike fund had the desired effect you'd like, why do you still have Pinnacle and Mesa contracts out there? What did it do for the Midwest or DHL pilots? How about the Aloha or ATA pilots? How about the Mesa pilots who will soon be flying as Aloha pilots?

I'm ready for the knee-jerk response "Well, if you look at FedEx..."

Keep waiting.

PCL and MESA have been unable to get to self-help. Hopefully, with the current administration in office, late next year, after low oil has helped boost gains (although PCL has been pretty successful anyway because NW mainline pays for the fuel and gives them a set fee per departure), we will finally see the ability of a pilot group to strike.

As I said earlier, you have to not only have the resolve and desire, but also the ability. Things are coming into alignment for these all to happen simultaneously, both at other carriers and, hopefully, at AAI.

You've answered your own problem: The pilot group needs unity and resolve. ALPA isn't the merry-maid of the industry. If you can't get your own house in order, what makes you think ALPA will do it for you?

We didn't say it WAS. You said that. Again, you're putting words into people's mouths that were NEVER said. Poor debate form. Again.

We also never said we wanted ALPA to "come and save us". We DID say that we were greatly interested in access to a large number of services, a greatly-more-experienced support base, as well as the monetary support that comes with ALPA, all while paying less dues than we do now.

The "I tried nuthin' and I'm all outta ideas" attitude is just as prevalent at ALPA carriers as well.

And this has WHAT to do with AAI pilots voting for ALPA in order to take advantage of all those things I listed above?

WHO, EXACTLY, do you work for again, please?

 

[gt1900]

Lear.... Explain to me what happend at Alaska then??? Here is a company who is doing very well and has ALPA on property. Yet, ALPA's wonderful leadership allowed ALA pilots to go to binding arbitration and get their @sses handed to them. Ever heard the term "Kashtration???" This is what ALPA allowed to happen. And trust me, the ALA pilots are WAY more unified then AAI pilots. ALPA isn't the golden ticket. The golden ticket is letting MB know that we are sick of putting up with the company's chit. If we tell him to have a backbone and then stand behind him, we can get a lot done. But now that we have someone in the NPA that could do a good job and guess what, you guys want him out. Everyone thought MB would be the golden ticket over AP, and now you think ALPA will be the golden ticket over MB... Guess what, history repeats itself. We are never going to get a contract if we keep replacing union members and Unions every year. I gurantee you will find someone to blame in 1 year when ALPA doesn't work out. We are looking at a good oportunity to have some bargaining power again in 2009. However, you want to screw that up by starting over. Guess what, we might not have that again in 2010 and we may miss our chance. Lets finally stand behing MB and see what he can do when we start to get some bargaining power....

BTW... You guys always pass on the oportunity to explain why ALPA let all their carriers take huge pay cuts after 9/11. The only guys who had any balls were the DAL guys. Otherwise, ALPA allowed the ball to drop with all its carriers. UAL, USAIR, CAL, ALA, DAL, NWA, ATA, Aloha...... When is ALPA going to say enough is enough???? I guess only when all the pilots leave ALPA for independent unions....

 

[Lear70]

I have nothing against Mike. I think SOME of the BoD members are spineless (we don't know which ones - everyone points the finger at everyone else. One or two of those are being replaced as we speak (did you vote?).

BUT... whether it's Mike or the rest of the BoD, they're not "getting" the message from the pilot group, which is loud and clear:

NO MORE LOA'S. LINE IN THE SAND. HARD-LINE STANCE ON CONTRACT ENFORCEMENT.

In the same vein, there's quite a few pilots who aren't getting that message, either, even though it seems to be the majority thought process.

That's why MemRat, FPL, and the card drives are in place. It's not just ONE PERSON that makes a union good or bad, as much as you think just rallying behind one person will fix everything. It won't.

We need a solid structure that will LIMIT the power and authority that ANY union leadership here has. Give the power BACK to the individual pilots, FORCE the BoD to do what the pilots direct, and you'll have a wall that management can't penetrate.

Use that, bring in a union that has the RESOURCES to back us, build on solidarity, get the pilot group to PLAN for a strike, and start pushing that direction.

Anything else is a hamster on the pinwheel. Lots of frantic activity, getting absolutely nowhere.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Let me correct some of your "revisionist" history:

Lear.... Explain to me what happend at Alaska then??? Here is a company who is doing very well and has ALPA on property.

This part is true. A large amount of the success is due to the pilots bending over backwards to make the operation work in spite of marginal leadership from the BCP level all the way to the top of the organization.

Yet, ALPA's wonderful leadership allowed ALA pilots to go to binding arbitration and get their @sses handed to them.

I'm assuming, here, you're referring to ALPA National. This statement is in error. In fact, the Company approached the pilots with a mid-term contract extension offer.

The Local MEC brought in National's EF&A folks to analyze the state of the Company and make recommendations. The EF&A folks told the MEC that the Company could use some help and that the offer was a pretty good one. They recommended we accept it.

Some of the features? An across the board 11% pay cut that would have been restored incrementally within 5 years. Retiring pilots guaranteed to retire at the current book rate over the same 5 years. A raise in the 401k Company contribution in exchange for not allowing new hires to participate in the A plan. Scope language. This is what was offered.

Ever heard the term "Kashtration???" This is what ALPA allowed to happen. And trust me, the ALA pilots are WAY more unified then AAI pilots.

Again, National had nothing to do with losing the arbitration. The LOCAL MEC rejected National's advice because there were MEC Officers who were convinced they could "defeat" the Company in arbitration. They were wrong. That's how Alaska pilots got "Kasherstrated" to the tune of 22% for Captains and 35% for F/Os.

You guys always pass on the oportunity to explain why ALPA let all their carriers take huge pay cuts after 9/11. The only guys who had any balls were the DAL guys.

Here again, your history is a bit fuzzy. UA, AAA AND DL all got their pay cut by the Bankruptcy Court. So did Aloha when they liquidated. ALPA has to accept Court rulings.

In the other cases you cite, ALL of them were a result of local MECs disregarding the advice ALPA National provided.

You really have to draw a distinction between National and Local Councils. National can only advise. They can't make Local Councils do ANYTHING unless they step in and take them over. And I can only think of a couple instances where that's ever happened.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[gt1900]

Give the power BACK to the individual pilots, FORCE the BoD to do what the pilots direct, and you'll have a wall that management can't penetrate.



Your kidding right??? How many "WALLS" did managment penetrate with ALPA??? Where do I start. UAL pension is gone, so is USAIRS, Alaska took a 28% paycut that NONE of them voted on. ALA pilots had NO say over their paycuts. ATA pilots out on the streets. DAL's pension is gone.... I could keep going and going and going..... All these company's had "WALLS" that managment broke through. Some in Bankruptcy, some not. Either way, managment forced these groups to do what they wanted them too. Your kidding yourself if you think AAI managment can't break right through an ALPA "WALL"....

 

[gt1900]

The Local MEC brought in National's EF&A folks to analyze the state of the Company and make recommendations. The EF&A folks told the MEC that the Company could use some help and that the offer was a pretty good one. They recommended we accept it.


THE COMPANY COULD USE SOME HELP............ How much does ALA really need in the bank?? How much money has ALA been making the last couple years??? ALA is one of the most finacially sound airlines there is, yet EF&A told the them the company needed help????????

Guess what, when AAI's managment asked for "help" the NPA told managment to shove it...... AAI was, and is, in a far worse situation then ALA..... Ill take NPA over ALPA any day.....

You act like an 11% pay cut would have been just great. Thats what ALPA suggested you do?? Are you friggen kidding me???? Tell ALA you weren't going to take a pay cut. Tell them to screw off because they didn't need the paycuts. Thats what the NPA did when AAI "needed" paycuts....

That is enough proof to me that ALPA has no backbone..... Suggesting you guys take an 11% paycut when the company didn't need it.....

 

[Lear70]

Your kidding right??? How many "WALLS" did managment penetrate with ALPA??? Where do I start. UAL pension is gone, so is USAIRS, Alaska took a 28% paycut that NONE of them voted on. ALA pilots had NO say over their paycuts. ATA pilots out on the streets. DAL's pension is gone.... I could keep going and going and going..... All these company's had "WALLS" that managment broke through. Some in Bankruptcy, some not. Either way, managment forced these groups to do what they wanted them too. Your kidding yourself if you think AAI managment can't break right through an ALPA "WALL"....

That's two, different issues, and you know it.

But, in your emotional rant, you aren't debating logically.

We have a problem currently where, despite the urgings of the pilot group, LOA's are getting signed that the pilot group would never ratify.

The "wall" I'm speaking of is one where that circumstance CANNOT happen unless the PILOTS allow it (which is how some of those carriers you mentioned ended up with cuts rather than face an arbitrator or judge's ruling on the cuts). You knew it, yet you went on your hijack rant anyway.

You and others here keep arguing by twisting things people say to fit arguments YOU want to make, instead of debating the argument the other person actually made.

Everyone here sees through it.

If you don't like ALPA for personal reasons, that's fine. But the irrational arguments you and 2 others are making aren't holding up to the facts.

 

[gt1900]

Its not irrational..... Its how the company's broke through the "Walls". They can do it in or out of bankruptcy, either way, the company's broke ALPA down and got what they wanted. Some of it was indeed forced on ALPA, but, if you think AAI can't do the same exact thing with ALPA on property, your way off. I really have nothing against ALPA with the exception that Ive seen them allow way to much chit to go on and show absolutly no regard to the pilots with many carriers, especially the regionals. Have you not read flightinfo? Have you read any of the posts where guys who are currently alpa are sick of ALPA?? Yet you somehow think its going to be better with them on property at AAI???

Lear... Explain to me why ALPA bent over with ALA and suggested they take an 11% pay cut? ALA is a very strong company with a ton of money in the bank and a great route structure with a lot of guaranteed revenue..

 

[Lear70]

Its not irrational..... Its how the company's broke through the "Walls". They can do it in or out of bankruptcy, either way, the company's broke ALPA down and got what they wanted.

Be specific. Quote the exact circumstances you are referring to here. Because, if memory serves, it wasn't the company that "broke ALPA down", it was the bankruptcy judges gutting contracts and retirements and the fear of those JUDGES, not fear of management, that drove other airlines to vote in concessions.

Some of it was indeed forced on ALPA, but, if you think AAI can't do the same exact thing with ALPA on property, your way off. I really have nothing against ALPA with the exception that Ive seen them allow way to much chit to go on and show absolutly no regard to the pilots with many carriers, especially the regionals. Have you not read flightinfo? Have you read any of the posts where guys who are currently alpa are sick of ALPA?? Yet you somehow think its going to be better with them on property at AAI???

There's FAR fewer posts that are anti-ALPA, especially on our internal board, than there are anti-Teamsters and anti-ALPA posts.

If you don't have anything against ALPA, why do you fight so hard against them? I'm calling bullsh*t.

Lear... Explain to me why ALPA bent over with ALA and suggested they take an 11% pay cut? ALA is a very strong company with a ton of money in the bank and a great route structure with a lot of guaranteed revenue..

Someone already did. You evidently didn't like the answer. Mine's not going to be any different.

 

[gt1900]

Who took the company's into bankruptcy? Managment did. Managment used the bankruptcy judges to get what they wanted. Simple as that. If they would have never taken the company's into BK then the judges could never have gutted the contracts. Management used the judges to gut the contracts.

Someone already did. You evidently didn't like the answer. Mines not going to be any different.

No they didn't explain it. They said that they went to arbitration because the ALA pilots thought they could get a better deal through arbitration. NO ONE OVER EXPLAINED WHY ALPA THOUGHT ALA PILOTS NEED AN 11% PAY CUT. I want to know why ALPA suggested the pilots of ALA take an 11% pay cut when ALA is a perfectly stable and finacially secure airline? Please, explain to me why ALPA rolled over.

Im fighting against ALPA because I have seen them do absolutely nothing for the airlines. I have seen them support the age 65 ruling, support paycuts for pilots, not stand up for pilots when they could, etc etc etc........ I don't hate ALPA, I just don't want them on property. I think we can do better by ourselves. I don't watn them telling our BOD to take a pay cut to help out the company, when the company doesn't need it....

 

[Lear70]

Who took the company's into bankruptcy? Managment did. Managment used the bankruptcy judges to get what they wanted. Simple as that. If they would have never taken the company's into BK then the judges could never have gutted the contracts. Management used the judges to gut the contracts.

The same circumstances as they had then don't exist anymore, number one.

Number two, again, management had no guarantee that the judges would do that. I believe they succeeded more than they ever thought possible. I also believe it wouldn't happen that way again. Especially not for the next 4-8 years.

So no, I don't believe you hold a valid argument moving forward.

Someone already did. You evidently didn't like the answer. Mines not going to be any different.

No they didn't explain it. They said that they went to arbitration because the ALA pilots thought they could get a better deal through arbitration. NO ONE OVER EXPLAINED WHY ALPA THOUGHT ALA PILOTS NEED AN 11% PAY CUT. I want to know why ALPA suggested the pilots of ALA take an 11% pay cut when ALA is a perfectly stable and finacially secure airline? Please, explain to me why ALPA rolled over.

ALPA National didn't do anything. The LOCAL MEC did. I don't think you understand the history accurately.

It's up to us to vote in ALPA to give us access to their assets. It's also up to us to make sure we put people in office who won't cave.

Questions?

Im fighting against ALPA because I have seen them do absolutely nothing for the airlines. I have seen them support the age 65 ruling, support paycuts for pilots, not stand up for pilots when they could, etc etc etc........ I don't hate ALPA, I just don't want them on property. I think we can do better by ourselves. I don't watn them telling our BOD to take a pay cut to help out the company, when the company doesn't need it....

Again, you're not speaking accurately of what happened.

Secondly, you're acting like we're doing SO much better without ALPA now. We don't have the money to match Kolski with the legal firepower that is required.

You're living in a fantasy land that history has PROVEN is not even remotely connected with fact.

 

[gt1900]

ALPA National didn't do anything. The LOCAL MEC did. I don't think you understand the history accurately.

Argueing with you is like talking to a wall.... The poster said ALPA national looked into ALA's finacial situation and said that ALA need help. Lear, Why are you ignoring that? National also said that the pilots SHOULD accept an 11% pay cut. That is what the above poster said. Simple as that. Why did ALPA suggest the pilots of ALA take an 11% pay cut. ANSWER the FRIGGEN quesiton.......


Did or did not ALPA support the age 65 rule? Simple question. Yes or No........

 

[PCL_128]

You don't understand the situation, gt1900. If they refused to take the 11% reduction, which they did, then they were subject to binding arbitration. Keeping 100% of what they had with no possibility of arbitration wasn't an option. It was either take the small paycut, or risk arbitration and a huge paycut. ALPA's advice turned out to be exactly right, since they ended up with a 35% paycut instead of just 11%. I don't see how you can keep arguing this.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Because, he's a card carrying ALPA hater. He's not putting it into the historical context.

At the time, Alaska wasn't as economically well off as it is today.

But, his agenda is apparent.