Is SWA trying to purchase ATAs operating certificate without the ATA pilots?

[Beetle007]

"FAA said Oct. 31 that it would allocate ATA Airlines’ 14 New York LaGuardia slots to any air carrier that acquires the airline’s business as a whole , which might boost ATA’s efforts to find a buyer"

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/ATA110308.xml&headline=Certain%20ATA%20Bidders%20Could%20Keep%20LGA%20Slots&channel=comm

Unfortunately, the same thing will probably happen to the ATA pilots (ALPA) that happened to the Independence pilots (ALPA). Remember that when NWA wanted to start Compass they purchased the Independence operating certificate, headquarters, and continued to operate an Independence CRJ with Independence management pilots to keep the certificate alive. They even kept the Independence FAA required management positions. Why did ALPA not fight to bring the pilots with the airline (from Independence to Compass)?

I think this is a wake up call to all pilot groups that they need to revise their union contracts to reflect better successorship language. All union contracts should make it clear that purchasing the operating certificate is automatically considered a purchase of the airline for purposes of acquiring the pilot group. Obviously this should be just one of many situations that trigger acquisition of a pilot group.

We are in a world where most airplanes, gates, and other assets are leased. So the fact that SWA does not want the ATA airplanes is irrelevant. If SWA wants the ATA operating certificate, they should be required to take the ATA pilots!

 

[Whine Lover]

The geniuses that comprised our MEC structure, one of which was appointed ALPA Custodian in bankruptcy, were not intelligent enough to see this coming. ( Even though most of the ATA Pilot Group did. )

We had full rights to any succesorship. SWA and other financial entities were waiting in the wings while they smooth talked these fools into signing away everything.

The Custodian signed away ALL contractual rights ( The entire ALPA Contract was thrown out the window) and signed an agreement to secure pennies on the dollar against unpaid Vacation, Warn Act Federal Monies , etc., etc.

We had some real intellect at ATA.


YKMKR

 

[Beetle007]

The Custodian signed away ALL contractual rights ( The entire ALPA Contract was thrown out the window) and signed an agreement to secure pennies on the dollar against unpaid Vacation, Warn Act Federal Monies , etc., etc.

I am speechless. ALPA national should have stopped that BS.

I don't think one member should ever be allowed to throw out the pilot contract. I would try to find a lawyer that could argue the custodian wasn't legally allowed to throw out the contract. Just like in divorces where pre-nups are thrown out because they give away rights that can't be given away.

Where is this genius ALPA bankruptcy custodian working now?

 

[Beetle007]

Is this the ALPA agreement that reportedly "gave away" your successorship language? Funny how it was titled "ALPA secures cash, jobs for former ATA crewmembers". Seems like a misnomer to me.

"We believe this agreement is the best choice for many ATA families who are still struggling to pay bills and rebuild lives shattered by overwhelming corporate greed,” said former ATA First Officer Don Wurster, who serves as ALPA’s custodian for the ATA cockpit crewmember group."

http://www.skycontrol.net/organisations/alpa-secures-cash-jobs-for-former-ata-crewmembers/

 

[Whine Lover]

Bingo.


YKMKR

 

[ATA For Now!]

He was a two faced, sneaky brown nosing little bastard when he was on the MEC and he finished with this. He always seemed to side with the person who "had the power" at the time and then stab them in the back when that power changed hands. Now, the ultimate screw job to the ATA pilots. Nice job Don! Karma dude! Funny thing, he doesn't have 1000 Turbine PIC so he's not even eligible to work for Southwest.

Enjoy your holidays.

 

[Dude]

Sorry, fellas.....

 

[ATA For Now!]

Oh, by the way, F Glenn Tilton.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am really surprised that the ticket is still active. Has ATA been running a flight every few days to keep it active?

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I am not sure that even one flight in 90 days is required. An operating certificate is usually worth $1-2 million to someone wishing to start an airline.

 

[Beetle007]

It sounds like the FAA wants someone to purchase ATA as a whole to get the LGA slots. I would assume this means assets and liabilities. I guess it is a lot more than the operating certificate.

 

[swa737-700]

Is this the ALPA agreement that reportedly "gave away" your successorship language? Funny how it was titled "ALPA secures cash, jobs for former ATA crewmembers". Seems like a misnomer to me.

"We believe this agreement is the best choice for many ATA families who are still struggling to pay bills and rebuild lives shattered by overwhelming corporate greed,” said former ATA First Officer Don Wurster, who serves as ALPA’s custodian for the ATA cockpit crewmember group."

http://www.skycontrol.net/organisations/alpa-secures-cash-jobs-for-former-ata-crewmembers/

Sadly, yes. ALPO sucks, it is that simple. Look what ALPO did for (to) the TWA pilots when aa/apa came knocking at the door.

Sorry that the screw job continues.

 

[CF34-3B1]

I think most SWA guys agree the ATA guys got - and continue to get - a raw deal.

I wish we could do more to help.

 

[scoreboardII]

I was wondering how long this would take, I mean, how long till some of the out of work/fired ATA guys sue SWA and SWAPA... Seems like you might have a cause with the new legislation. Of course, SWA will say they don't need bodies, and in fact has plenty, to the point of overmanning, and, hey wait a minute, it was the plan all along!

No really, this sucks guys, sorry.

 

[GuppyWN]

Well if the plan was to give our jobs and growth away and piss off the pilot group - it's working like a charm.

Gup

 

[MCDU]

Do not forget Midwest Express. Another ALPA carrier getting royally screwed.

M

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I know the gates in Charlotte were sold to Air Tran, What happened the the DCA (Washington National) Slots and the gates elsewhere? Theres got to be more assets than the Slots in LGA. And if another Airline Bought the "Assets" what would prevent them from taking the "Meat" (Slots and Gates) and selling the "Bones" (Certificate). You wouldn't think there was any idiot right now who would want a certificate to start an Airline BUT their probably is.

Had many friends at ATA who lost jobs, Many still out of work or out of flying, they got a raw deal.

KBB

 

[Whataburger]

What happened the the DCA (Washington National) Slots and the gates elsewhere?
KBB

I read in one article that SWA actually paid a bit more for the DCA slots to be dropped out of the "package." We apparently wanted nothing to do with them, and it cost us some money to let the DC slots go alone.

 

[Full of LUV]

They should start up a military charter business....

I know the gates in Charlotte were sold to Air Tran, What happened the the DCA (Washington National) Slots and the gates elsewhere? Theres got to be more assets than the Slots in LGA. And if another Airline Bought the "Assets" what would prevent them from taking the "Meat" (Slots and Gates) and selling the "Bones" (Certificate). You wouldn't think there was any idiot right now who would want a certificate to start an Airline BUT their probably is.

Had many friends at ATA who lost jobs, Many still out of work or out of flying, they got a raw deal.

KBB

It seems to me that ATA operated quite a while doing military charters, it was only when they decided to get into 121 ops that their fortunes turned radically different. Maybe they should start up a military charter outfit with their certificate.....

 

[Jetjockey]

It seems to me that ATA operated quite a while doing military charters, it was only when they decided to get into 121 ops that their fortunes turned radically different. Maybe they should start up a military charter outfit with their certificate.....

Not quite accurate. They were bigger than SWA at Midway for sometime. Terrible decisions over the last 5 years is what did them in.

 

[Crucianpilot]

Not quite accurate. They were bigger than SWA at Midway for sometime. Terrible decisions over the last 5 years is what did them in.

That and 9/11.

 

[njcapt]

Not quite accurate. They were bigger than SWA at Midway for sometime. Terrible decisions over the last 5 years is what did them in.

... and John Denison acting as a mole for SWA while he was CEO of ATA during bankruptcy. Reluctantly came out of retirement my a$$. Enjoy your position on the board, traitor.



Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:26 PM CST
Southwest Airlines appoints two to board

Dallas Business Journal

The Southwest Airlines board of directors has appointed two new directors: Daniel D. Villanueva and John Denison.
Villanueva, a partner at California-based private equity firm RC Fontis, brings extensive experience to his post. A former managing partner at Bastion Capital Corp., Villanueva currently serves at least three major firms as a board member. Villanueva also spent two decades in broadcasting as a TV executive for Spanish International Communications Corp.
Southwest’s second appointee, Denison, formerly served Global Aero Logistics Inc. in an executive role. He also held the position of chairman of the board at the airline holding company, Southwest said in a press release Thursday.
“We are proud to add businessmen of this caliber to our board,” said Gary Kelly, chairman of the board, president and CEO for Southwest Airlines. “We know their talent and experience will provide fresh insight particularly as our industry still faces many challenges.”

 

[Whine Lover]

" CEO of ATA "

Funny. That that little tidbit seems to be conspicuously absent from the article.

Hmmmmmm....


YKMKR

 

[CaptSeth]

A F$$$ing Trojan horse. We knew it then, we know it now. Looks like he got his pay off, and we got ours - a phallus inserted anally.

 

[vtwo]

Dennison personally told me that Gary Kelly was like a son to him.

Well it looks like DAD is being rewarded for answering the phone Back when Kelly called him while he was grilling steaks, Gary Kelly Asked John to go to Indianapolis and look after ATA when Southwest pumped Millions in to it to keep Airtran from getting Control of Midway airport.

The real story is really starting to become clear.

This is not hearsay , HE told me this when I was having lunch with him and the Bankruptcy CFO. while at a Captains meeting in Indy.

Hey John, Go live the rest of your life F'ing over others.

 

[mhermann596]

At least someone noticed we got the shaft.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/11/21/dirty-rotten-beautiful-southwest.aspx

Dirty, Rotten, Beautiful Southwest

By Tim Beyers
November 21, 2008
Comment (1)

2 Recommendations

You're ruthless, Southwest (NYSE: LUV).
ATA Airlines is dead and now you, like a vulture, want to pick at the carcass. This week, you bid $7.5 million for a portion of the defunct airline’s assets, including its operating certificate and 14 flight slots for New York's LaGuardia Airport. A bankruptcy court is reviewing your application now.
They won't find a plan to take over ATA's jets, or hire its former employees, or assume its gates at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. You want to grow as cheaply as possible -- just like your peers at UAL Corp.'s (Nasdaq: UAUA) United, Delta (NYSE: DAL), and US Airways (NYSE: LCC), among others.
But you're more ruthless than any of them. You're a grave robber.
Someone had to be; our capitalist system thrives on creative destruction. You've embraced this truism knowing that you'll very likely take criticism for doing so. Former ATA employees will call you heartless. They'll call it a tragedy. Guess what? They'll be right. But no one said that capitalism was easy. Failure is an essential element of the system.
Failure creates opportunity for survivors. Assets are absorbed, competitive advantages created -- here, seven new daily nonstops in JetBlue's (Nasdaq: JBLU) backyard. And it's all because, when ATA was barely breathing, regulators didn't intervene. Instead, they allowed a free market to work as intended. They allowed you to work.
Congress should be taking notes. Ford (NYSE: F), General Motors (NYSE: GM), and Chrysler argue that, without at least $25 billion in bailout money, one or more of them will fail. Let them. As taxpayers, we'd do better handing out $25 billion in employee bailouts -- extended jobless benefits and low-cost small-business loans for former Big Three workers. At least then we'd be pumping money directly into the economy and funding new capital-creating ideas. Isn't that better than pushing life support to sickly firms that were declared brain-dead years ago?
You're ruthless, Southwest. And that's exactly as it should be.

 

[b747dogg]

What ATA pilots? There are none.

 

[mhermann596]

I guess you can say that since SWA kicked them all to the curb

 

[Dizel8]

I thought I read that any slots at LGA would return to the PANYNJ in case an airline ceased to exist.

Funny how they now are allowing SWA to purchase them!

 

[scoreboardII]

Just as United existed in bankruptcy, so does ATA. They exist until liquidated.