AA in LAX

[poor2thecore]

Just a question for you AA types: what aircraft are based in LAX and how senior/junior is it for that specific fleet type? Do you ever start any trips out of SNA, ONT, etc etc?

Thanks all!

 

[aa73]

Lax:

777 Ca 1974-1984
777 Fo 1984-1990
767 Ca 1974-1987
767 Fo 1986-1999
737 Ca 1984-1990
737 Fo 1989-2000
S80 Ca 1979-1991
S80 Fo 1987-2001

Pilots must cover LAX, SNA, ONT and SAN.

 

[poor2thecore]

So with the 01' DOH it's effectively one of the most junior domiciles I take it?

Any trips start in SNA/ONT?

 

[aa73]

Yes, the -80 and 737 F/O bid statuses have been filled this year by recently recalled pilots who were hired in late '00/early '01. It is not the most junior base in the system but not that senior, either... about middle. And yes, we have trips that originate out of SNA and SAN.... not sure about ONT.

 

[macdu]

Hired or aquired? Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[Starscream]

Hey aa73 great info as always. Just curious, is DFW infact the most senior? Do you have numbers for that domicile?

No interest in ever being based there, just heard from a few recently recalled flowbacks that they'll never hold DFW, which I thought was kind of strange, since, if it's anything like Eagle, must be the largest domicile at mainline as well.

 

[zman]

I heard AA NY base is pretty nice, what is your guys long call reserve like??? Also do you cover JFK, EWR, and LGA???

 

[aa73]

Hi Starscream. DFW is just about the most senior base we have. WTF knows why? Right now, the S80 is locked out for bidding due to the massive # of reinstatements waiting to come back. From what I know, there are furloughed pilots all the way to the most jr. on the street who have a DFW S80 reinstatement. As of this month, the most jr S80 FO in DFW was hired around May 2000, just recently reinstated. Junior S80 lineholder is around an early '99 hire. The 737 tends to go to 1998/early 1999 hires. The 767 is about the same. If you do get awarded DFW, plan on YEARS on reserve. The int'l widebody flying pretty much sucks, too - they cut a lot of stuff to free up airplanes for int'l expansion out of MIA and NY.

DFW is always the first base to displace during shrinkage. In the last round of cuts, folks were booted out of there for up to 2-3 years. It is just incredibly senior for us.

Zman - NY is the place to be at AA. I just transferred to the int'l division this year and am here to stay. By far the most varied flying, and slated to expand in the next few years. Also the most junior base. With the massive terminal, I would venture AA has plans some day to grow as big as DL. In the next two years they will convert 18 757ERs to int'l service and launch a whole bunch of new routes, supposedly. Right now with 8 years of service at AA I am a relatively junior lineholder on the 767 in NY, holding Europe and S America lines - stuff I could never touch at any other base. It is also usually the base where CA upgrade comes the quickest. I say "quickest" tongue in cheek - right now the junior AA CA is about a 1991 hire!

 

[zman]

So AA73 do you guys also have to cover LGA as well as EWR???

 

[poor2thecore]

No flame intended, but why is the upgrade so long? Do you guys not have and up-or-out policy in place?

 

[75M]

Do you know about "Shrinkage"?

 

[AA717driver]

Do you know about "Shrinkage"?

It is getting to be that time of year...

Where you been, 75M? I'll give you a call this week.

On topic: AA is the most stagnant airline in the business right now (other than USAir East). There is virtually no upward movement and no growth planned. (Unless you count the company's veiled promise of growth with the signing of "a competitive contract".)

With over 1,000 people still on furlough, you have plenty of time to sharpen up those resumes. TC

 

[G4G5]

So AA73 do you guys also have to cover LGA as well as EWR???

Yes and No,
If your equipment type has flying out of EWR (S80) then you cover all three. If your equipment type only covers one base (777) then all you have to worry about is JFK.

 

[Draginass]

Considerations and facts:
1. Still almost 2000 AA pilots on furlough with no plans to recall. Some have been on furlough for over 7 years.
2. Current pilot contract has pay rates that equate to 50% of the purchasing power they had in 1991.
2. Very toxic labor-management relations.
3. The pilot's union is in contract talks with the company. They've been going 2 years with virtually no progress due to company stall techniques.
4. The company is essentially demanding that 100 seat flying and below goes to Eagle. If they get this, they will surely retire many many narrow body aircraft and transfer the flying to Eagle, and almost certainly result in lots of furloughs and seat downgrades.
4. Further, the company is demanding that the working pilots fly more days/hours and go to a preferential bidding system. Most people estimate that if management gets their way, there will be a permanent loss of a minimum of 1000 pilot jobs.
5. Career progression at AA is virtually non-existent. Very few upgrades and lots of 12-16 year copilots.

If you're having any delusions about American hiring anytime soon, have a strong cup of coffee and snap yourself out of it.

 

[Ur Dad]

So what's the deal with SFO? how jr or senior and what kind of ac and what kind of trips?

 

[Starscream]

Before anyone else chips in, based on what I know, SFO is a small and fairly senior satellite base (like DCA I guess) that only has the S80 and 757/767. I believe one of the last recall classes had something like 8 S80 slots, but that's probably very unusual.

As for AA hiring, I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't start again till 2010-2012. Also, AMR may want this and that from APA, but what they'll actually get is a different story. No legacy has outsourced 100 seaters yet (thank god), and I doubt APA will allow themselves to be the first. It doesn't appear as though either side is ready to flinch.

 

[bubbers44]

With the pension numbers any senior pilot who doesn't retire by Nov 30th will be working for free for the rest of his career. Expect a lot of vacancies.

 

[aa73]

With the pension numbers any senior pilot who doesn't retire by Nov 30th will be working for free for the rest of his career. Expect a lot of vacancies.

Yup... in fact, it's been stated that some A-scalers will lose up to $500,000 at the stroke of midnight on Dec 1 if they stay....

What everyone else has said here is true, especially Draginass... tremendous stagnation, low morale, and one ticked off pilot group constantly being harassed by the flight dept. It's probably gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

[stlflyguy]

With the pension numbers any senior pilot who doesn't retire by Nov 30th will be working for free for the rest of his career. Expect a lot of vacancies.

I'd like to agree with you but I have a nagging hunch that there will be many who will claim "oh well, I can keep going until I'm 65...the market is sure to return."

It will only be that way because I am fairly close to recall myself. (Thanks for nothing, ALPA.)

stlflyguy

 

[pipejockey]

Considerations and facts:
4. The company is essentially demanding that 100 seat flying and below goes to Eagle. If they get this, they will surely retire many many narrow body aircraft and transfer the flying to Eagle, and almost certainly result in lots of furloughs and seat downgrades.

It seems to me that AA is in the best position to really be the trailblazers here since Eagle does about 90% of the RJ flying. They could make scope be a total non issue by making ALL flying done by an AA pilot by putting everyone on 1 list! Then AA could finally compete effectively within the 70-100 seat market in which they woefully lag behind the other carriers. The only thing I can think of is that the APA won't tolerate their military buddy new-hires(if hiring ever resumes again) having to fly an RJ until their seniority can hold what would be considered mainline equipment(737-MD80). The same type of attitude that resulted in all these pesky RJ's being flown by the bottom feeding regional carriers we have today.

If fences and seat locks were created to keep all those 15 to 20+ year Eagle guys from jumping ahead of the more recent AA hires of the late 90's and 2000-2001, I think in the long run it would be best for the majority involved. And I bet if you polled the Eagle pilot group, the vast majority wouldn't mind a staple anyway. The only ones who would gripe are these pathetic 15-20+ year Eagle Captains who had plenty of opportunity to move on to bigger and better during the hiring spree the legacies had back in 1998-2001, but instead, just sat on their collective a**es waiting for some presumed "flow-through". And besides, from what I have heard, 600 Eagle pilots are going to have AA numbers anyway.

 

[Draginass]

It seems to me that AA is in the best position to really be the trailblazers here since Eagle does about 90% of the RJ flying. They could make scope be a total non issue by making ALL flying done by an AA pilot by putting everyone on 1 list! Then AA could finally compete effectively within the 70-100 seat market in which they woefully lag behind the other carriers. The only thing I can think of is that the APA won't tolerate their military buddy new-hires(if hiring ever resumes again) having to fly an RJ until their seniority can hold what would be considered mainline equipment(737-MD80). The same type of attitude that resulted in all these pesky RJ's being flown by the bottom feeding regional carriers we have today.

If fences and seat locks were created to keep all those 15 to 20+ year Eagle guys from jumping ahead of the more recent AA hires of the late 90's and 2000-2001, I think in the long run it would be best for the majority involved. And I bet if you polled the Eagle pilot group, the vast majority wouldn't mind a staple anyway. The only ones who would gripe are these pathetic 15-20+ year Eagle Captains who had plenty of opportunity to move on to bigger and better during the hiring spree the legacies had back in 1998-2001, but instead, just sat on their collective a**es waiting for some presumed "flow-through". And besides, from what I have heard, 600 Eagle pilots are going to have AA numbers anyway.

It's hard to know where to start with this one. First of all, the APA cannot dictate combining AE pilots into their seniority list and contract. AE ALPA has a 5 more years on a cheap contract with AMR and even if the APA wanted a single seniority list AA would tell 'em to pound sand. Further, there's the other employee groups. Secondly, it's the general feeling that AE pilots disdain the APA in general and I doubt they would want to come to what they see as the dark side. Thirdly, there's an arbitration going on right now because AA has fallen below a pilot manning threshold in which the APA can demand that Eagle be shut down. The disposition of Eagle is still up to question. Fourthly, there are about 2000 AA pilots still on furloughs, and I doubt that Eagle would agree to being furlough fodder.

Eagle being sold off is a much more possible than any thoughts of combining the companies. AE has only 25, 70 seat airplanes because AMR wants to only pay commuter compensation for a narrow body airliner. They could have all the 70, 90, or 100 seat airplanes they want. But don't expect the APA to cave on scope like Delta and NW ALPA did.

If AA wants a BK compensation and BK scope style contracts, they're going to have to take the company to bankruptcy.

 

[pipejockey]

AE ALPA has a 5 more years on a cheap contract with AMR and even if the APA wanted a single seniority list AA would tell 'em to pound sand.

Well AA knows the APA isn't going to cave on scope, so a little compromise might be the answer. Even if anything less than 100 seats would have to be flown at a competitive payscale with the other RJ operators, while 100+ seats is considered the "A" scale. I know, many of you fought hard to get rid of the B scale pay yeras ago, but these are trying times for the profession, and it seems to be in free fall. Something radical needs to be done, while allowing both parties to walk away feeling as if they have won.

Secondly, it's the general feeling that AE pilots disdain the APA in general and I doubt they would want to come to what they see as the dark side.

Perhaps those 15-20+ year guys I mentioned earlier, but that could be the result of mainline guys treating the RJ pilots as if they were a pariah.

Fourthly, there are about 2000 AA pilots still on furloughs, and I doubt that Eagle would agree to being furlough fodder.

Thus the seat locks and fences. It would be hard work and many would be unhappy, but I feel in the long run it would be beneficial to most.

They could have all the 70, 90, or 100 seat airplanes they want. But don't expect the APA to cave on scope like Delta and NW ALPA did.

If AA wants a BK compensation and BK scope style contracts, they're going to have to take the company to bankruptcy.

Those are some strong words. I surely hope the majority of you will hold to that. The problem is, all these other clowns like the Delta and NWA boys not to mention USAir have hundreds of these 170-175-190's flying around. Enough to make me sick. It's my dream to have no more regional airlines around before I die. Yes I know, it's just a pipedream!

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Well AA knows the APA isn't going to cave on scope, so a little compromise might be the answer. Even if anything less than 100 seats would have to be flown at a competitive payscale with the other RJ operators, while 100+ seats is considered the "A" scale. I know, many of you fought hard to get rid of the B scale pay yeras ago, but these are trying times for the profession, and it seems to be in free fall. Something radical needs to be done, while allowing both parties to walk away feeling as if they have won.

Im currently at a regional and I agree. Lets face it the regionals are a B scale. We might as well have that B scale attached to a mainline seniority number, and work rules.

Some would argue that these A/C would come on property to replace MD80's. I would say better to have them at mainline than subcontracted and replacing MD80's. Most of these A/C would however be growth a/c. The MD80/737 would still have its use and may shrink slightly but the E170/175 fills a void the company currently doesnt have. I would argue that the pilot ranks at AA would in fact grow due to these A/C being operated at mainline.

Everyone currently at American is on or near 12 year wages. Im sure alot of American FO's would not mind taking a small paycut to be a Captain.

Republic E175 CA Rates
1. 64
2. 68
3. 73
4. 75
5. 77
6. 80
7. 82
8. 85
9. 87
10. 90
11. 93
12. 96
20. 119

American MD 80 FO
1. 35
2. 75
3. 90
4. 92
5. 95
6. 97
7. 99
8. 102
9. 105
10. 107
11. 109
12. 110


The E170/175 FO pay rates would be lower than MD80 rates however most of the 170/175 right seats would be filled with new hires.

Because everyone currently at American is on a high longevity pay rate these guys wouldnt see a cut in thier pay. The new guys that would get hired as a result are already on these "B" scale wages at the regionals so nothing changes for them either. The new hires now have the opportunity to move on to larger A/C within the company later without having to return to 1st year wages again. It's a win win for both groups.

 

[pipejockey]

Yes, there are many options to turn things around but no one with the power to do so is the forward thinker required to make things happen. As long as CEO's and managers are getting theirs, nothing will change.