State of fractionals including NJA

[pilot22]

Interesting article dicussing NJA,CS,Flops etc.


http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/the-fractional-market/

 

[brokeflyer]

hasnt this been beaten to death already?

were all gonna be outta work. Or, we're not.

If anyone can ride this out it's NJ......glad I'm where im at. I feel bad for the others who aren't so fortunate.

 

[gunfyter]

Interesting article dicussing NJA,CS,Flops etc.


http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/the-fractional-market/

Yes interesting and looks not too bad for NJ ... but this is all pre-credit crisis ... or at least pre- they informed us we have a credit crisis.

 

[CALRepublic]

This makes feel good about my job, but I know everything can change in a New York minute.


"During the past year, NetJets, according to Parvaud’s numbers, tops the list in terms of the highest percentage of the total fleet sold to customers, with 95.5 percent. For such a large fleet, NetJets has a small core, only 4.5 percent of the total fleet. This is a good measure of how efficiently NetJets is operating, in that it is able to keep most of its fleet in customers’ hands, which leaves capital available for more important uses.

What is remarkable about the NetJets number is that like most other fractional companies, NetJets has reduced its outside charter needs considerably, even with such a small core fleet. Flights on subcontractor charter airplanes, according to John Colucci, executive v-p for sales, “are a tiny percentage of our flights. Our flying hours are not down at all; it’s more efficient use of the fleet than in the past.” On an average NetJets day with 500 flights, he added, it’s rare to see even one outside charter".

 

[RTRHD]

We are about to decrease our airlines bill also. We had a 91 ferry (3 NJA crew) just the other day. They we good guys we had fun.

 

[dudemize]

We are about to decrease our airlines bill also. We had a 91 ferry (3 NJA crew) just the other day. They we good guys we had fun.

RTS mentioned at recurrent a couple weeks ago that at some point it will be more economical to move crews around on company aircraft. It can't happen fast enough for me.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

We are about to decrease our airlines bill also. We had a 91 ferry (3 NJA crew) just the other day. They we good guys we had fun.

I always thought buying 15 Honda Jets and spreading them around the US having them on the EJM ticket would be a good idea for:

1. Training potential NetJets Pilots
2. Moving crews
3. Use as back-fill for NJA owners on very short flights

 

[ozpilot]

I always thought buying 15 Honda Jets and spreading them around the US having them on the EJM ticket would be a good idea for:

1. Training potential NetJets Pilots
2. Moving crews
3. Use as back-fill for NJA owners on very short flights

Wolf, we already have a fleet of VLJ's. Its called the Beechjet The only plane that shows tan lines when you take the engine covers off! As a matter of fact one of them is taking me home at the end of the day tomorrow.

 

[RTRHD]

RTS mentioned at recurrent a couple weeks ago that at some point it will be more economical to move crews around on company aircraft. It can't happen fast enough for me.

You can say that again. Would that not be cool cutting our airlines even by 30%.

 

[B727FA]

You can say that again. Would that not be cool cutting our airlines even by 30%.

Yeah, but we'd lose the miles.

 

[XTW]

The only plane that shows tan lines when you take the engine covers off!

Now that there is some funny shi t!:laugh:


X

 

[jonjuan]

I always thought buying 15 Honda Jets and spreading them around the US having them on the EJM ticket would be a good idea for:

1. Training potential NetJets Pilots
2. Moving crews
3. Use as back-fill for NJA owners on very short flights

Son, did you eat paint chips as a kid?

 

[Some guy]

Son, did you eat paint chips as a kid?

HAHA...Why?

 

[gunfyter]

I wonder how people in Corporate Flight Departments feel right now with the markets crashing?

I don't know much about that, but would think all the Fracs are a better place to be right now than many flight departments.

 

[NJAPLT]

I always thought buying 15 Honda Jets and spreading them around the US having them on the EJM ticket would be a good idea for:

1. Training potential NetJets Pilots
2. Moving crews
3. Use as back-fill for NJA owners on very short flights

Sigh.... Have we learned nothing from our airline brothers? I can't wait until there is a 8 seat VLJ to replace us Citation V pilots, just like the 90+ seat RJ's replaced mainline airline pilots......

If they want a fleet of planes (no matter the size) that could be used to move us or our owners, it should be NJA pilots flying them, not another group of pilots who might one day take our flying away.....

Oh, and I believe there is provisions in the current CBA for negotiating "VLJ" type aircraft, along with SSBJ aircraft, so both ends should be covered.

 

[captain dad]

There's always going to be rich people and the reduction in airline capacity and 90%+ load factors, I think may drive even more business our way.

Ultimately, I don't know. It's way above my paid grade. I trust those in charge, know what they are doing. It has slowed some. Not much but we are just starting our busy season. The nice thing is we are can rely on contracts to maintain us during the downturn if it gets real bad.

I think NJA is far better off then most including the airlines. Very happy to be here. I hope we can all prosper.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Sigh.... Have we learned nothing from our airline brothers? I can't wait until there is a 8 seat VLJ to replace us Citation V pilots, just like the 90+ seat RJ's replaced mainline airline pilots......

Do you really believe that our owners would want to ride around in a Piper Malibu with Jet engines? I don't.

The HondaJet is:

• more economical than a Ultra
• cheaper to buy
• (probably faster... :laugh

And most pilots with the experience to fly at NetJets aren't going to want to fly a VLJ, as they most likely already will have.


Bottom Line, period:

"If operating an in-house fleet of airplanes to move flight crews creates better utilization of said flight crews, and lowers the overall travel expenses incurred by the company, all-the-while not jeopardizing anyone's safety doing so..... Then friggin do it."


As for learning anything from our Airline Brothers quote.... I've learned they are not real brothers, they were adopted, and no one loves them (their parents included). That boat sailed a long time ago, and they are still sitting on the dock trying to sell tickets.

 

[NJAPLT]

Do you really believe that our owners would want to ride around in a Piper Malibu with Jet engines? I don't.

Right now, with there limited room and cargo, probably not. In a few years, a second or third generation VLJ design, they might be very well be on par with our current corporate aircraft (except for the well paid pilot.)


The HondaJet is:

• more economical than a Ultra
• cheaper to buy
• (probably faster... :laugh

And most pilots with the experience to fly at NetJets aren't going to want to fly a VLJ, as they most likely already will have.

Again, who would have foreseen all of the RJ's flying around when they were first introduced? Think how many boeing and airbus aircraft would be flying around if RJ's never existed....

Bottom Line, period:

"If operating an in-house fleet of airplanes to move flight crews creates better utilization of said flight crews, and lowers the overall travel expenses incurred by the company, all-the-while not jeopardizing anyone's safety doing so..... Then friggin do it."


I have no problem with a fleet of Piperjets, CirusJets, or Mustangs, flying owners or crewmembers. I just want to make sure that if NetJets decides to do it, it will be NetJets pilots flying them, not some other outfit. I look at the "deal" that NJA pilots accepted to get the NJI flying back in-house, and we don't need a repeat with a VLJ fleet.

No pilot group has ever won by giving there flying away to someone else. NetJets pilots should fly NetJets planes and passengers.

As for learning anything from our Airline Brothers quote.... I've learned they are not real brothers, they were adopted, and no one loves them (their parents included). That boat sailed a long time ago, and they are still sitting on the dock trying to sell tickets.

I'm willing to learn from the airline pilot's mistakes. A contract means nothing without Scope..... Thinking that those little turboprop and jet planes were no big thing, no one would every want to fly them long distances, they would just always feed to our big airline, etc... Arrogance at it's finest

I doubt that we will get a separate fleet of VLJ's to fly crews around, but if we do we must protect ourselves from a "RJ" type situation.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

And most pilots with the experience to fly at NetJets aren't going to want to fly a VLJ, as they most likely already will have.

You missed the point. It is not about if we want to fly those VLJs, but if those VLJs' young pilots would want to fly a Netjets CE750. The danger is if we hire a bunch of 2nd-tier paid VLJ pilots to fly us around, they will be eventually like RJ pilots tripping over themselves to fly 737s.

Now, if Netjets wanna pay us current pay rate to fly VLJs to haul our own guys around, AND give us a annual personal travel account allowance (say $2,000/yr) to substitute the airlines points that we would be missing, I am all for it!

 

[brokeflyer]

dont worry it wont happen.....

I think the company would be better off to take the 5 most used airlines and "buy" space ahead of time....similar to fuel hedging.

just a thought.

 

[bailout]

And in total opposite...I just saw a report on CNN on about how over 50% of companies with aircraft are predicted to sell their jets and join fractional ownership companies to save costs.

 

[fischman]

The HondaJet is:

• more economical than a Ultra
• cheaper to buy
• (probably faster... :laugh

Not faster, but almost... (420 KTAS)
http://hondajet.honda.com/specifications/index.aspx?bhcp=1

Personally, I would have no problem flying a VLJ such as the Honda, but as others have stated, I would want OUR pilots, on OUR seniority lists, operating under OUR CBA.

Not much room for cargo though! Makes the 400xp look like a dream!

 

[fischman]

BTW, Honda is hiring test pilots for anyone interested. I have no clue what the required qualifications are. Looks like they have good benefits.

http://hondajet.honda.com/careers/index.aspx?bhcp=1

 

[RCA]

You missed the point. It is not about if we want to fly those VLJs, but if those VLJs' young pilots would want to fly a Netjets CE750. The danger is if we hire a bunch of 2nd-tier paid VLJ pilots to fly us around, they will be eventually like RJ pilots tripping over themselves to fly 737s.

Now, if Netjets wanna pay us current pay rate to fly VLJs to haul our own guys around, AND give us a annual personal travel account allowance (say $2,000/yr) to substitute the airlines points that we would be missing, I am all for it![/quote

How about frequent flyer miles for personal use of the private jet.

 

[jetlag7]

I'm willing to learn from the airline pilot's mistakes. A contract means nothing without Scope..... Thinking that those little turboprop and jet planes were no big thing, no one would every want to fly them long distances, they would just always feed to our big airline, etc... Arrogance at it's finest

I doubt that we will get a separate fleet of VLJ's to fly crews around, but if we do we must protect ourselves from a "RJ" type situation.

Great post NJAPLT -- You hit it right on the money! SCOPE is EVERTHING.

Bottom line, ALL NetJets flying should ONLY be flown by pilots on the NJASAP seniority list..... period.

No matter how innocent it may look at first, starting-up an "airline within an airline" using non-seniority list pilots at different payrates than what we currently fly for is a recipe for disaster down the road....

We just clogged-up a gaping hole in Domestic Scope with the the NJI/NJA integration... do we really want to open up another one????

 

[ozpilot]

We just clogged-up a gaping hole in Domestic Scope with the the NJI/NJA integration... do we really want to open up another one????

Your kidding right? The 300 pilots of NJI are a threat to the 3000 pilots of NJA?

Go back to the pledge of 2005. Did NJI cover all our flying? No. It was covered by outside vendors, so unless we get every part 135 pilot in the country on our seniority list, scope is largely irrelevant at Netjets.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to welcome the NJI pilots into the fold, but don't kid yourself about 'scope'.

And don't even get me started on EJM.

 

[NJAowner]

A large part of what makes NJA appealing to owners is safety and the pilots. That is a a huge factor in why we pay more to fly NJA than any old Part 135 operator. My guess is the owners would require this if there were to be a VLJ fleet. I would.

Fly safe, and thanks.

 

[jtf]

I'm sure the union would require it also. They put a ton of energy into the NJI merger and were willing to go to a single carrier arbitration for it (and still will if RS decides to back out of the deal). There isn't really any flying to gain for the NJA pilots with the merger, but keeping the door closed on outside pilots flying for NetJets (other than sell-offs) is very high on the list of things to do for the Strong Union group that leads the NJASAP and lead the 1108 before. The harm done to the legacy airlines pilot groups due to them allowing regionals to fly RJs on code share will not be allowed by the current leadership if they can help it at NJA. I have my doubts we'll see a VLJ fleet here to fly us around, but if we do I have no doubts it will be NJA pilots doing the flying if they are owned by NJA.

 

[fly4funcrj]

I'm sure the union would require it also. They put a ton of energy into the NJI merger and were willing to go to a single carrier arbitration for it (and still will if RS decides to back out of the deal). There isn't really any flying to gain for the NJA pilots with the merger, but keeping the door closed on outside pilots flying for NetJets (other than sell-offs) is very high on the list of things to do for the Strong Union group that leads the NJASAP and lead the 1108 before. The harm done to the legacy airlines pilot groups due to them allowing regionals to fly RJs on code share will not be allowed by the current leadership if they can help it at NJA. I have my doubts we'll see a VLJ fleet here to fly us around, but if we do I have no doubts it will be NJA pilots (beech 400 pilots) doing the flying if they are owned by NJA.

Sorry, couldn't help it. These guys/gals don't fly now so it would make sense to cross train them on a plane that probably weighs more

 

[jetlag7]

Your kidding right? The 300 pilots of NJI are a threat to the 3000 pilots of NJA?

Go back to the pledge of 2005. Did NJI cover all our flying? No. It was covered by outside vendors, so unless we get every part 135 pilot in the country on our seniority list, scope is largely irrelevant at Netjets.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to welcome the NJI pilots into the fold, but don't kid yourself about 'scope'.

And don't even get me started on EJM.

No, I wasn't kidding. We DID in fact clog-up a gaping hole in our Domestic Scope with the NJA/NJI integration.

However, you bring up a very good point in that it was far from the ONLY gaping hole. Charter sell-offs and EJM will still have to be dealt with. We still have work to do on the Domestic Scope front.

Even in an operation like ours, scope matters and IS a relevant issue.

..... now, don't get me started on NJE trans-oceanic flying and the potential International Scope implications that beast could create for us at the bargaining table down the road.....