Aborting a T/O

[Oakum_Boy]

Good policy. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all.

 

[SuperFLUF]

FOM, do what it says- are you going to let a FO crash?

How about a briefing by the capt (first flight with FO or of pairing) over what will and will not be aborted for, delegation of duties...etc? If the FO has issues with it he/she can speak then and discuss. That way there is no question, no matter what the FOM says.

The FOM sets company policy but without a clear briefing there is room for misunderstanding.

 

[WSurf]

How about a briefing by the capt (first flight with FO or of pairing) over what will and will not be aborted for

Damn, that would be on long brief! Bottom line is we don't know what the hell could happen. So I don't think you can brief for every situation.

 

[WSurf]

I think you need to remember however that once V1 has been called you pretty much have already had the decission made.

I watched a Luftansa Video and I like how they call V1.

Instead of Calling "v1" the pm in a strong voice says "Go" which I think really lets everyone in the cockpit know that they are now committed to the takeoff.

Good video of why you don't abort after v1.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=iBTJMxOe-yM

 

[regionalcap]

Damn, that would be on long brief! Bottom line is we don't know what the hell could happen. So I don't think you can brief for every situation.

?? You can pretty much cover all your bases with a good brief.

 

[Ameriagle]

yeah-true- captain only is very arrogant-especially at the majors where the experience level is so high. an abort is not the time to be proving your case. It's the time to act.
There is the argument that you don't want a less experienced pilot aborting at 130kts for a door.

Who has there hands on the thrust levers? Don't think arrogance or skill plays much of a role in an airlines particular philosophy on the matter!

 

[wmuflyguy]

yeah-true- captain only is very arrogant-especially at the majors where the experience level is so high. an abort is not the time to be proving your case. It's the time to act.
There is the argument that you don't want a less experienced pilot aborting at 130kts for a door.

I think the point of it is, is that both of you know who is to make final decision. That way at 120 kts, there isn't a question as to who will make the call.

Two people may abort for entirely different reasons and there isn't time to reason it out with the other person. experienced or not, it just takes the question of who is going to do what out of the question and saves the precious seconds.

Where I work, no matter who is flying...the CA has his/her hands on the thrust levers (after the PF pushes them up and PM sets thrust) and he decides and carries out the abort.

 

[pilot772]

At my former company (a regional) on the turbo prop side either pilot could call the abort and the pilot flying would abort including the FO. On the Jet the brief was, "If we have an engine Fire or failure prior to V1 the pilot noting will call abort, abort (including the Fo) and I (CA) will abort the takeoff. Any other malfunction bring to my attention and I will call abort or continue." So even if the FO was flying and called the abort I performed the abort(had my hand over the thrust levers)

At the new company (Frac) our FOM is similar to the turbo prop above where either pilot can call the abort and the pilot flying performs the abort.

Clear as Mud

 

[GogglesPisano]

I've worked for 3 airlines. It has always been captain's call with the captain's hands guarding the thrust levers.

 

[aa73]

At AA it is only the CA who can abort, and who guards the thrust levers, however, the F/O is expected to call out anything abnormal he/she sees.

At my last regional, the flying pilot could abort.

Just curious... what does FOM stand for? I'm assuming it is the company manual correct? AA calls it "Flight Manual Part 1."

73

 

[waveflyer]

i've worked at 5 companies- 3 of them made it the responsibility of who notices first and 2 are captain's calls-
the better training regarding the aborts happened at the airlines where FO's were expected to initiate the abort if they noticed it.
This is a better culture safety wise, imo. But i get the above points.

 

[Flyer1015]

Just curious... what does FOM stand for?

Flight Operations Manual

 

[GuppyWN]

My brief is:

"We've both got a ton captain experience in jets or we wouldn't be here. Let's work together and if we ************************* it up let's un************************* it together."

Gup

 

[FmrFreightDog]

i've worked at 5 companies- 3 of them made it the responsibility of who notices first and 2 are captain's calls-
the better training regarding the aborts happened at the airlines where FO's were expected to initiate the abort if they noticed it.
This is a better culture safety wise, imo. But i get the above points.

I disagree. Approaching V1 speed on a runway that might be short or might be wet with an aircraft that might have a deferred thrust reverser or an deferred anti-skid system, I think the concept of "abort by committee" is a very bad idea. At the end of the day, just like always in this business, somebody has to be in the position of "final decision maker". Sure, a captain might make a decision to continue when an abort is warranted. Sure, an FO might make an ill-advised decision to abort at 120 knots for a blown tire. Everyone's fallible. Obviously, time permitting, a decision on the best course of action by consensus is the best course. However, in an abort situation, there's no time for that kind of thing. The person in command of the aircraft is the one who should be making that decision. Of course, a competent co-pilot should also know how to call out a malfunction that he or she believes warrants and abort in an assertive, agressive manner, up to and including stating the word "Abort".

Bottom line though.... like it or not, it's the Captain's airplane, and the abort is the Captain's decision.

Just my opinion.

- Former Captain, current Co-Pilot.


ps. To answer the original poster's question, at both 121 carriers I have worked at, the abort decision always rested with the Captain. At one 135 freight carrier I worked for, the abort could be called by either pilot. Then again, we were flying Shorts 330s, and Vr in that thing is roughly 7 knots, so an abort wasn't a big deal. Oh, who am I kidding. It was freight. Doubtful we would have aborted if the HAZMAT in the back exploded, caught the cargo net on fire, and took out an engine with flying debris....

 

[waveflyer]

There are very few items worth aborting for above 80 kts and fewer above 100kts. We can disagree, it's ok.
But to be clear- are you saying the FO is empowered to say the word "Abort"- but the captain is empowered to ignore it?
That's safe how? In the moment and culturally- that is not a good idea.
The reason I agree w/ both pilot's being empowered to initiate the abort is b/c it gets the FO thinking like a captain instead of sitting on their hands. It makes them responsible, instead of just a passenger who can pawn that off on the captain.