MN crash

[400A]

Many times......

And alot of other good ones. Its all in how you go into a job, I lay out my demands at the interview. Just like I just did with the new company I'm starting with.



Thats correct....IN CHARGE!!!! Plane parks on the ramp, they are in charge again. Pretty simple.

If you spoke to my Boss in such a manner (cocky and arrogant) I would relieve you of duty on the spot.

I do in fact worry about the mission my Boss is trying to accomplish. It may be the deal that gets me a bigger bird and a big pay raise. Delivery and a back up plan are the mark of a true professional. I will never compromise safety, but I will have some sort of plan to offer to him as G200 said. "Me Captain, You sit down and shut up" is not a plan nor is it professional. I have found that simply walking them over to the WSI machine and showing them a visual picture is more than enough to make them understand. You can be the hero because you planned in advance or you can be the zero because you said......"I am in charge and we are not going" Your choice.

Being a professional does not start and stop on the ramp as you said.

 

[Fly91]

that kind of attitude might find you bouncing between rather crappy jobs!

I've found that owners like that kind of attitude. Never had a problem with those demands at a job.

99% of the people I've come across that "bother" the pilots was when I was flying Part 135 charter anyway, not 91, just customers that you'll probably never see again that just don't get it. That was 8 years ago. I've only flown Part 91 and a couple years Part 121 since then. My last 91 job had company employees that never said anything to the pilots, the owners were great and never said anything to us either, but the company did have us flying clients from time to time that were just cheeseballs and would talk alot of crap. My boss at that time, actually loved it when we shut them down and told them to leave the flying to us. After all these people were my bosses workers, who are they going to complain to? They sold the plane and closed the flight department after 2 years.

The new 91 operator I'm with now, we spoke about it at the interview last week because I brought it up as something I do not want to deal with, even from the owner. I do not like people in the cockpit telling me what to do or "why don't we do this or that", or talking at you on final approach when you're trying to talk on thr radio. I like when people talk to us up front, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, thats totally fine with me, but keep the flying comments out of the conversation and don't offer up decisions that we're supposed to be making. They dont bring me to there multi-million $$$ meetings to offer up my opinions for a reason.

You require what you want in the cockpit, I require what I want.

 

[Fly91]

If you spoke to my Boss in such a manner (cocky and arrogant) I would relieve you of duty on the spot.

I do in fact worry about the mission my Boss is trying to accomplish. It may be the deal that gets me a bigger bird and a big pay raise. Delivery and a back up plan are the mark of a true professional. I will never compromise safety, but I will have some sort of plan to offer to him as G200 said. "Me Captain, You sit down and shut up" is not a plan nor is it professional. I have found that simply walking them over to the WSI machine and showing them a visual picture is more than enough to make them understand. You can be the hero because you planned in advance or you can be the zero because you said......"I am in charge and we are not going" Your choice.

Being a professional does not start and stop on the ramp as you said.

Being professional goes without saying. This discussion is focusing on when a passenger is upset because you just told them, WHILE ENROUTE, that you won't be making the original destination. What do you say if they won't except that and keep telling you to get them there? What if an owner says you better get me there regardless of what you think?

This is what we're talking about. Me, they get a very professional response, the options they will have when we get to the alternate which was previously planned for anyway, and thats it. After that, they'll keep getting shorter and shorter responses from me. The last thing I will ever consider is to try to make it in once I decided not to.

Look, we're talking maybe 3 times while flying Part 91 I've had to be a little sturn after responding to them 3-4 times that we can't make the destination. Part 135, its happened alot. As you know, Part 135 customers can care less about anything else but GETTING THERE. And after going back-and-forth for 5 minutes it gets pretty irritating and I shut it down. Never have I had a boss/owner say a word to me about it. They always back us up.

 

[Fly91]

Oh well. Hopefully we can get some real, accurate info on this crash so we know what went wrong.

 

[HawkerF/O]

While there are many issues G200 is wrong on and I am right on, this is an issue where he is correct and I agree with him 100%. Sounds like he has been doing this awhile.

CX880 (post #61) equated this to having lots to live for and and not wanting to throw it all away over a trip. It's just not that simple. The people riding in the back of these business tools sit in meetings/boardrooms all week long making decisions and having people follow thier instructions without delay; literally asking how high can they jump. And now, here is some employee of theirs TELLING him what he can and cannot do with his own aircraft. Phuleazzzzzzze. That will never go over well. It has nothing to do with what they have to live for, it has to do with ego, who is going to make the final decisions here, and just give Mr. Bigbuck a reason to get into your a$$ and see how quickly that happens.

Look at what G200 says, "acceptable alternatives". What he is saying is that he gives them their options based on what he is willing to do, then lets them make the final decision based on the choices he presented and since he presented the options, he is obviously comfortable with any of them. By doing it this way, the CEO thinks he made the decision when all along, G200 made it. See how that works?

Now G200, you got time to help a fella change out some brakes? Trying to save the boss some $. Seriously, how have you been?

Its all in the presentation IMO. We give realistic predictions and provide acceptable alternatives FAR IN ADVANCE to get the person where they need to go, thats the goal right?

 

[Fly91]

While there are many issues G200 is wrong on and I am right on, this is an issue where he is correct and I agree with him 100%. Sounds like he has been doing this awhile.

CX880 (post #61) equated this to having lots to live for and and not wanting to throw it all away over a trip. It's just not that simple. The people riding in the back of these business tools sit in meetings/boardrooms all week long making decisions and having people follow thier instructions without delay; literally asking how high can they jump. And now, here is some employee of theirs TELLING him what he can and cannot do with his own aircraft. Phuleazzzzzzze. That will never go over well. It has nothing to do with what they have to live for, it has to do with ego, who is going to make the final decisions here, and just give Mr. Bigbuck a reason to get into your a$$ and see how quickly that happens.

Look at what G200 says, "acceptable alternatives". What he is saying is that he gives them their options based on what he is willing to do, then lets them make the final decision based on the choices he presented and since he presented the options, he is obviously comfortable with any of them. By doing it this way, the CEO thinks he made the decision when all along, G200 made it. See how that works?

Its pretty obvious how the order of events should go before putting your foot down firmly to anyone in the back. This is the internet so the real discussion always gets lost.

Typical.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Its pretty obvious how the order of events should go before putting your foot down firmly to anyone in the back.

Clearly that is not the case with you (RE: your post and 400a having to have you come correct- post #76).

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Now G200, you got time to help a fella change out some brakes? Trying to save the boss some $. Seriously, how have you been?

LOL....nah, we got a crack team of mechanics who do all that in the 12hrs planes seem to sit each month! -

All is great this summer - kids, lake, fishing, a good amount of partying (I have been accused of that on forums as if its a bad thing - lol) and a little work are keeping me very busy. Thats good though, it keeps me out of trouble!

Hope all is well on your end.


PS - Contrary to your previous post, I have never been wrong.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Touched down and tried to get back into the air.....




startribune.com

OWATONNA, Minn. - National Transportation Safety Board investigators are looking at all scenarios as to why a corporate jet crashed and killed eight people aboard, a board member said Saturday.

"We are looking at everything," said board member Steven Chealander. "There is no single focus at this point. It is a multiple focus accident investigation."

The jet was carrying six casino and construction executives and two pilots when it went down Thursday, killing all aboard. The executives were coming to Owatonna to meet with representatives of a local glass company called Viracon to discuss a $2 billion hotel-casino complex being built in Atlantic City by Revel Entertainment.

The charter jet went down in a cornfield northwest of Degner Regional Airport. Seven people were found dead at the site. One died at a hospital.

Investigators plan to interview witnesses as well as people in Pennsylvania where the flight originated and in Atlantic City where it stopped, Chealander said.

They are also looking at runway conditions and plane mechanics. A thunderstorm also moved through the area before the crash so investigators were studying whether that contributed to the incident, Chealander said.

Investigators planned to listen to the cockpit voice recorder, the only recording device on the plane, he said. But they have also recovered the flight management computer and enhanced ground proximity warning system and officials hope those have memory that might be helpful.

Chealander said the plane attempted to land and touched down on the runway but then witnesses heard the engines power up again as the pilots tried to get back in the air. The plane traveled about 1,000 feet through a grass field before it hit a runway-wide antenna about eight-feet high.

"That's where the airplane lost control," he said.

The plane then rolled into the cornfield and started coming apart, he said.

Investigators hope to find out why the pilots tried to get back into the air, Chealander said.

 

[Hawker800]

Wonder if the airbrakes were deployed while attempting to lift off. The thing will go with full flaps but not with lift dump deployed. As far as passengers go they pay your bills. G200 had some very good advice in his previous post. Respect their wishes and keep it safe. Both can be accomlished at the same time. Rare is the occasion that I have had to put my foot down. Have a good evening everyone.

 

[400A]

Wonder if the airbrakes were deployed while attempting to lift off. The thing will go with full flaps but not with lift dump deployed. As far as passengers go they pay your bills. G200 had some very good advice in his previous post. Respect their wishes and keep it safe. Both can be accomlished at the same time. Rare is the occasion that I have had to put my foot down. Have a good evening everyone.

A go around in a Hawker in post touchdown configuration can be a very busy event.

 

[Fly91]

Wonder if the airbrakes were deployed while attempting to lift off. The thing will go with full flaps but not with lift dump deployed. As far as passengers go they pay your bills. G200 had some very good advice in his previous post. Respect their wishes and keep it safe. Both can be accomlished at the same time. Rare is the occasion that I have had to put my foot down. Have a good evening everyone.

Well said. I think rare is my maybe 10-12 times in 12 years of flying. I guess when you don't explain in deep detail and just make an open statement like I did someone will always jump on it and take the statement out of control. Welcome to the "intraweb".

My guess is they landed long due to the shear and tried to go around because they knew they couldn't stop in time.

But we'll learn soon enough, hopefully.

 

[Bandit60]

Well said. I think rare is my maybe 10-12 times in 12 years of flying. I guess when you don't explain in deep detail and just make an open statement like I did someone will always jump on it and take the statement out of control. Welcome to the "intraweb".

My guess is they landed long due to the shear and tried to go around because they knew they couldn't stop in time.

But we'll learn soon enough, hopefully.

You keep mentioning "shear". I have yet to hear about any shear at this airport at the time of the landing. I'm not saying there wasnt any but there is evidence of a tailwind.

 

[400A]

http://www.startribune.com/local/26208409.html?location_refer=Business

Has a video of witness interview, and NTSB briefing.

One report says the right wing hit the localizer antenna during the go around attempt.

I hoped that the witness was wrong and heard reverse thrust, but after seeing pictures of the aircraft before the crash, It did not have T/R's.

 

[HawkerF/O]

PS - Contrary to your previous post, I have never been wrong.

Well, you've got one up on me; I was wrong once............That time I thought I was wrong but I was actually right!